Two hard to find WWII U.S. guns in Canada- early M1A1 carbine and M97 trench gun

[drm3m]

This comes from stuff that Bruce Canfield wrote.

There were two separate production runs of M1A1 Carbines. The so-called "First Contract" carbines were shipped between October 1942 and October 1943, with approximately 71,000 MlAls delivered during the period. Serial numbers ranged approximately from 42,000 to 850,000.

The underside of the pistol grip on the First Contract M 1 A 1 Carbines was also marked "01" along with a small Ordnance Department crossed cannons escutcheon.

The early stocks typically had a circled “P" proofmark stamped on the rear of the stock.

NOTE;

The M1A1 carbine shown below is serial numbered 123829 with a 12-42 barrel date.
It is one of the early ones in the 'First Contract' October 1942-October 1943.
It has not had later modifications.
I purchased this carbine on January 23 2008 following Bruce Canfield's comments following examination of detailed photos.

Bruce's comments.

"From what I could tell, I didn't see anything out of line and it looks like a nice example.
Original early M1A1s are very hard to find and congratulations on your find".

Before I bought this M97 Winchester trench gun I passed it by Bruce Canfield for his opinion.
Based on his comments I bought it on December 20th 2011.
Serial number E 955352.

David

I thought that Bruce would be a good guy to ask about these two guns.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Sweet!

 

[archer2u]

bought a trench gun years ago with a duck bill choke,was lousey fo rabbits so i sold it for $75 more than i paid for it, $150 ahh what i didnt know then...

 

[blista77]

how much are trench guns worth these days, i no someone whos got one and might sell

 

[drm3m]

blista 77,

Because there are so few M97 trench guns that change hands in Canada it is hard to define market value.
I suspect that there is substantially more demand for these guns than there is supply.

It would depend if the gun you are talking about is WWI vintage or WWII.

As with all collectable guns, condition, original finish and correct markings are all critical factors.

If you wish to pursue purchasing a M97 trench gun I would strongly suggest that you do some homework in order to know if the gun that you are looking at is correct or not.

For example an early WWII M97 in the 930000 serial number range would probably have a W.B. acceptance marking on the stock instead of G.H.D.

It would probably not have the Ordnance flaming bomb on the left receiver next to the U.S.

This changed with the later WWII serial numbered guns as is shown on the
M97 above.

A minty WWII M97 in the U.S. might sell for $8,000, but this would never happen in the Canadian market.
A really nice WWI Model 1897 trench gun would probably be worth more than that.

Would a really nice M97 be worth $3,000-$4,000 in Canada…..possibly?
The problem is finding one.

David

As a matter of interest, the early WWII M97 shown below sold on RIA in September 2011 for $8,525 including fees.
Note the W.B stock marking and the absence of the Ordnance flaming bomb next to the U.S.
on the left receiver.
I don't think you could find an early M97 in better condition. (Serial number 937039)


I sent the info regarding this RIA sale to Bruce Canfield and this was his answer.
18/03/2012

“While it's probably the "top of the market" at this time, I can't say I'm terribly surprised that a near pristine WWII M97 trench gun would bring over $8K. A WWI trench gun in this condition would likely bring even more. The really primo examples are bringing top dollar and I don't see that trend changing. Original military shotguns have been undervalued for many years but that is obviously changing. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in more and more fakes being made.”

 

[drm3m]

A fellow in the U.S. that has been very helpful to me regarding
M97 trench gun stuff put this together…..he knows a lot more about this subject than I do.

Bruce Canfield's book puts the serial number range for WWI era 97's between E613000 and E705000.

Some of the differences between the WW1 and WW2 97 trench guns are:

1. WWI guns have the high comb buttstock which are also thinner at the wrist. The WW2 guns have a fluted comb buttstock and are thicker at the wrist.

2. The early WW2 guns have the same 6x29 hole heat shields as the WW1 guns, but the later WW2 guns have the 4x29 hole heat shield.

3. The bayonet adaptor on WW1 guns is marked either “Pat Appl For” or “Pat Jan 18 & Mar 19 1918.” The bayo adaptors on WW2 guns are unmarked.

4. The bayonet adaptors on the WW1 vs. WW2 guns fit the barrel slightly different. The bayonet adaptor lug on the WW1 guns fits about even with the muzzle end of the barrel while on the WW2 guns the lug is slightly behind the muzzle end of the barrel.

5. The top rear of the barrel on a WW2 gun is marked with the Ordnance flaming bomb. The barrels on WW1 guns do not have the Ordnance bomb mark on them.

6. The magazine tube on WW1 trench guns only have two holes drilled at the forward end for the mag plug screws. On WW2 guns there are two additional holes drilled for the takedown lever (which, of course, is not used on WWI trench guns).

7. The slide action bar on WW1 guns is marked “Model 1897” over “-Winchester-“ over “Trademark Reg US Pat Office”. The are unmarked on WW2 guns.

8. Buttstocks on WWI guns are not martially marked. On early WW2 guns the stocks are marked with the WB cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons. The later WW2 guns have buttstocks marked with the GHD cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons.

There are some other subtle differences, but the above are most of the major ones.

Photo #1 WWI Model 1897 trench gun (NOT MINE) ---note the difference in the stock shape, as well as the number of holes in the heat shield.

Photo #2 Not all WWI Model 1897 trench guns had U.S. property markings,
this is what the U.S. and Ordnance flaming bomb would look like on the right receiver.

Photo #3 This Winchester marking would be present on the action bar of the WWI Model 1897 trench guns.

Photos #4 and 5 bayonet adaptor markings on WWI trench guns.

David

NOTE;

This WWI Model 1897 trench gun does not belong to me.
The photos of markings relating to the WWI trench guns are from different guns, they are for example purposes only.

 

[live4therut]

Very nice, I'm truely jealous of the examples you've shown on here. You have a very nice collection.

 

[albayo]

Very nice examples. I have a 97 riot with the early WWII shield (6 rows of holes) and bayonet lug. It isn't military marked but appears to have come out of a law enforcement agency or the prison system. It has a rack number on the bottom of the pistol grip.

 

[fmb]

...

 

[Bojangles]

I believe that the Model 12 also served as a trench gun in WWII. It was issued in smaller numbers and is not as common as the 1897.

B

 

[RMXC51]

I'm sure just the sight of the barrel shroud on the M97 killed thousands of Germans!

Love the trench gun, total bucket list gun!

 

[lonely_wolf]

Drm3rm,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and pictures.

 

[bluesteel221]

got a question for you. what about a springfield 1903? i got one and iam trying to figureout how much they are worth. it is in very good condition.

 

[drm3m]

Thanks Live4therut.

Quite frankly I did no know where I was going to go with my WWII U.S collection as I already had a 1942 manufactured M1911A1 Colt and a 1942 manufactured M1928A1 Thompson so the 1942 manufactured M1A1 carbine seemed like a good fit.

I tripped over an M1 rifle at one point along the line.
1943 with an EMcF acceptance stamp.

albayo,

I think M97 riot guns are very neat, I would love to own one.
Military marked riot guns are much more difficult to find than trench guns.
The M97 riot gun shown below does not belong to me.

NOTE;

I have never seen a M97 riot gun with a bayonet lug.
There is often a mix of trench guns and riot guns parts...you really have to know what you are looking at. But I am definitely not a M97 riot gun expert.

Bogangles from what I understand some Model 12 riot guns was used in WWII with W.B acceptance markings on the stock.....no Model 12 trench guns.

bluesteel 221- I don't know anything about Springfield 1907s.

I had a lot of help with this M97 trench gun stuff from Bruce Canfield and Tom D. in the U.S. for which I am very grateful.

David