Type 38 Arisaka - UPDATE

ArtyMan said:
Unfortunately the bolt does not match the reciever as best I can tell. The bolt does match the safety and the dust cover and the bayonet lug. Im not sure how that could have come about? perhaps took the bolt and bayonet lug off a damaged rifle and slid them on to this rifle? The metal shows the same aging throughout so whenever it was done it must have been a long while ago.

I dont think I will steam anything out. To be honest I kind of like the "used" look of a milsurp. The dark moisture wear on the stock really suggest humid jungles. Im impressed its still very sturdy!
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I read that it was common for bolts to be mis-matched on vet brings backs. It was something along the lines of having the bolts separated from the rifles when the troops boarded the ships (the bolts being dropped into buckets). When the ship returned to port, the troops got to the bolt bucket but there was no guarantee of getting the original bolt again. Perhaps your bolt parts were swapped around a bit during Japanese service ? I imagine that would be common place while operating in a jungle environment and firing corrosive ammo.

The Japanese built these rifles with jungle fighting in mind I am sure but I don't think I would want to go running through vine infested jungle undergrowth with a 55" rifle slung over my back :D.
 
Nabs said:
I read that it was common for bolts to be mis-matched on vet brings backs. It was something along the lines of having the bolts separated from the rifles when the troops boarded the ships (the bolts being dropped into buckets). When the ship returned to port, the troops got to the bolt bucket but there was no guarantee of getting the original bolt again. Perhaps your bolt parts were swapped around a bit during Japanese service ? I imagine that would be common place while operating in a jungle environment and firing corrosive ammo.

The Japanese built these rifles with jungle fighting in mind I am sure but I don't think I would want to go running through vine infested jungle undergrowth with a 55" rifle slung over my back :D.
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Interesting note on the mismatched bolts. Makes sense thats for sure, I have read on some American sites about captured arms being thrown in a pile, with bolts/breach parts thrown in another pile so as to not give a detainee a chance to grab something.

I sure wouldnt want to go running around with anything this long. Thanks to the help of a CGNer I will be picking up a Nagoya Type 30 hooked quillion bayonet this week. Once I acquire it I will be sure to click it on and take some pictures. Should be almost at tall as I am!
 
Hello Arty,

I used to own one of those rifles! Congratulations. What you seem to have is a Japanese Type 38 that served in the IJN for a period of time (that white marking on the stock, to my knowledge, indicates that it was a marine issue rifle. That number was marked to a solider, who was ordered to bring back the same numbered rifle after shore ventures in order to prevent stock shortages on board ship. Not bringing it back... well. No sake for many weeks at least!) From there, it seems to have been defaced. I understand that both stamping and grinding counted as cancellation marks post war, however the stampings of yours seem to mean it was "sold out of military service".
That's all I know! Beautiful rifle.
 
Drachenblut said:
Hello Arty,

I used to own one of those rifles! Congratulations. What you seem to have is a Japanese Type 38 that served in the IJN for a period of time (that white marking on the stock, to my knowledge, indicates that it was a marine issue rifle. That number was marked to a solider, who was ordered to bring back the same numbered rifle after shore ventures in order to prevent stock shortages on board ship. Not bringing it back... well. No sake for many weeks at least!) From there, it seems to have been defaced. I understand that both stamping and grinding counted as cancellation marks post war, however the stampings of yours seem to mean it was "sold out of military service".
That's all I know! Beautiful rifle.
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Awsome! Thanks for the info! There is a small marking on the bottom of the pistol grip. Looks similar (very faint) to some sort of anchor marking I saw on one of the Japanese arm forums. I will take a detailed pic and upload.
 
ArtyMan said:
True! When the weather gets warmer we will have to take her out and have a shoot off against your M1. :D With a video for CGN of course
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We've got everything we need to represent the major players in the pacific. Should be a good range day.

As for it being designed specifically for jungle fighting, I'm not so sure about that... There aren't many jungles in Japan, nor Korea nor China nor Russia.
 
Drachenblut said:
From there, it seems to have been defaced. I understand that both stamping and grinding counted as cancellation marks post war, however the stampings of yours seem to mean it was "sold out of military service".
That's all I know! Beautiful rifle.
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I wouldn't think the Japanese would be able to sell off their military equipment (especially with it being needed badly for defense on the home islands). I also don't think the Japanese did much surplus weapon selling post WW2. If it was done then I am guessing the U.S. had their fingers all over it.
 
Hawkshadow said:
As for it being designed specifically for jungle fighting, I'm not so sure about that... There aren't many jungles in Japan, nor Korea nor China nor Russia.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear previously. I was referring to the jungles on various island outposts and environments closer to where the Japanese army and navy had positions in 1942. I am certainly no expert on Japanese weapons or military policy but I think I can safely say Japan was eyeballing the lower Pacific for expansion of their empire. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
ArtyMan said:
Very nice RDelliott! Is the sling an original or a repro?

Ive heard the norma stuff runs around 40$ a box? is that around right? Im sure at prices like that it will only take one or two boxes to convince me to pick up dies!
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Thanks. I think yours is in better shape, though. The sling looks to be an original, a quick-detach model. Unfortunately there's a bit of paint of it too. One of these days I will get around to trying to remove it.

Yup, $40/box sounds about right. IIRC, with shipping it came out over $3/round, but I only ordered a couple of boxes. Dies are most definitely in order, methinks :).
 
Nice score with the sling! I have been looking informally for the past 24hrs or so - seem uncommon and expensive.

IRT jungles I do believe there are many, many tropical jungles in the South Pacific.
 
Sure there are jungles in the south pacific, and the Japanese did send troops there, however that's like saying that the ross was good for use in western europe or the m16 was great for vietnam.

To be honest, I never really gave much thought about it until I was sent this clip from a Military Channel documentary. I watched all of the clips (comprising the entire episode). That got me thinking about this rifle. It was designed during the Russo- Japanese war in 1905 and, prior to the major jungle campaigns in ww2, primarily operated in non-jungle climates. Given these considerations, as well as the Japanese military's initial general unpreparedness for fight in a jungle theatre, I stand by the statement that the rifle was really not designed with jungle warfare in mind...

However, as admitted I am no expert on the topic. Just my 2 cents.
 
I think you are right, I did not think of the original production date for the Type 38. My best comparison would be the Gewehr 98 being issued to troops, in unaltered configuration, in German South-West Africa. Although the rifle did work, the original configuration was ill suited for that type of envirnoment.

Are Arisakas from the early 20th century (1900s to 1918) common or rare by comparison to their later made sister rifles ? Were many updated or just run through and parted out to service later made rifles ?

I would not object to owning a Type 38 that would have been used in the Russo-Jap war or perhaps made just afterwards and used in later conflicts. Is there any way you can tell the date of a particular rifle or perhaps a date range ?

How common is 6.5 Jap brass and dies for reloading ?
 
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ArtyMan said:
Nice score with the sling! I have been looking informally for the past 24hrs or so - seem uncommon and expensive.

IRT jungles I do believe there are many, many tropical jungles in the South Pacific.
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It came with the rifle. Yeah, I'm pretty happy to have the thing. Dunno that it's ever going to become my favourite rifle, but it's a quality firearm that shoots well and oozes historical interest all over the place. Given its likely date of manufacture, it could have been involved in the various Japanese wars in China, WWII... I'll never know, but it does make me wonder.
 
I've seen those types of markings on the Mum before, and I was under the impression that they were taken out of service and used as a training rifle. If you go to Gunboards.com, they will likely tell you the same...
 
There is a discussion of the rifle over at gunboards under the Rising Sun section. Waiting out currently for a reply from a PM to determine some other mysteries.
 
Well CGNers I have an update - straight from the authority himself! Mr. Allan posted this reply via gunboards.com As the author of "The Type 38 Arisaka" its very safe to say the information is 100% correct.

---Copied WITH his permission---


"For those of you who have a copy of "The Type 38 Arisaka", see pages 430-433.

This interesting rifle is actually a Thai Type 83 Long Rifle. It started life out as a Japanese Type 38 Infantry Rifle from the 27th Series manufactured by the Nagoya Army Arsenal in 1939/1940. The mum is cancelled by the then standard method of stamping eight 0s (not circles) around the edge of the mum, with each stamp hitting two petals of the mum. This was the standard methond of cancelling the mum during this period.

The T-38s were passed to Thailand through a barter agreement. Japan received Thai lumber, etc and Thailand received various military weapons. The rifle was type-classified into Thai military service as the Type 83 based upon the Buddhist year 2483, which corresponds to our Western year of 1940. Thailand was involved at the time in a very nasty little shooting war against Vichy French forces in Indo China over an old border distpute. (The French had literally stolen Siamese provinces to add to Indo China by placing warship off of Bangkok and threatened to bombard the city unless Siam gave up terrirtory. This all took place many years before this 1940 conflict took place.) The Thais saw France's weakness after the German invasion and used the opportunity to try to get its territory back. It worked until 1945 when France demanded the territory back - and got it.

These are really interesting rifles. The condition of this one is pretty much how they are encountered as they saw extensive service. These rifles were not directly imported into the US, as we had a law on the books for a number of years which did not allow for the importation of military weapons after the Kennedy assassination. It was not lifted until several years passed and that was the period when Thailnad surplused these rifles.

In 1959 many were converted to U.S. .30 cal (.30-06). These were then re-classified as Type 83/88 rifles. I just sent the rodent an artilce for Banzai on these alter examples. Keep your eyes out for it in a future issue.

ArtyMan - I see that you blacked out the serial number. Could you send me the full serial number of the board? I am trying to determine how many of these survived and I have 40-some odd serial numbers recorded. I do not need to know who you are, but I would like the SN for my files. Thanks"

There will be more information coming...
 
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