Unburned powder .45ACP

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VooDooMan

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Evening all,

Reloading my .45ACP - Having a ton of fun, working up my LRN rounds.
I have quite a bit, ( seems to me at least ) of unburned powder in the bore.

I am using W231 powder, Under a 230grn LRN tumble lube design bullet.
Win NT case with small primer. I am seating my round to 1.270" ish OAL ( case end comes flush or slightly above the end of the barrel ) and my crimp on the MOUTH of the case is about .470"
Using lee loadmaster loader with the 3 die carbide set from lee.

More crimp? More powder? New powder?

Any insight would be swell.......Thanks
 
Do you shoot indoor or ourdoor? If indoor, watch for unburned powder infront of your stall. What does the patch look like when you clean the barrel?

I still think it's lead in the barrel. The reason I think so is that 231 is one of the faster burning powders and will build pressure and temp quickly thus may be melting the base of the bullet more than with slower powder.

Try WSF if you can, it's much slower and see what happens.
 
Patches come out FILTHy with flakes of powder on it......I shoot 100% outdoor.
Lots of muzzle flash though.

This powder is several years old! Possibly dead powder?
I am thinking some clays or tightgroup maybe, Not sure, I want some thing I can buy at a decent price and stick to!

Loaded up a max load of W231 - 5.1 grains just now.
Fired it off.....Still filthy with flakes of unburned powder, Even increased my crimp to .465 at the mouth,

Some thing not adding up.
thanks all
 
Couple of experiments. Suggest you wear eye protection and do this away from open pools of gasoline, propane tanks and your wife...

1. Does a pinch of propellant on a spoon burn cleanly and completely if ignited with a match? If so, I might question the flakes in your barrel being unburnt powder. As CeeZer noted, propellant burns best under pressure (like inside a barrel). If 231 burns outside a barrel, it's hard to see that it would not burn inside.

2. If there are enough flakes, I might try scraping them onto a spoon and trying to light them with a match. If they ignite, they're clearly propellant. If nothing whatever happens, it might suggest that they are not, which leads back to CeeZer's suggestion that they might be bits of lead.

Modern propellant is generally pretty long-life - unless it's been stored improperly, especially at high temperatures. Does that apply to yours?
 
I would increase the charge and perhaps change your primers. Light loads sometimes don't completely burn and I had the same issue with W231. I found that 5.7 grains with just about any 230 grain bullet made a big improvement. I used a hotter primer too. No pressure issues in MY gun.
 
VooDooMan said:
I am thinking some clays or tightgroup maybe
Click to expand...
Titegroup has the lowest ejecta of any powder.

http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/titegroup.pdf

Clays is also good - burns quite cleanly.

If upping your charge doesn't help, and for some reason you dislike the unburnt powder (it can get into your gun and be difficult to clean from the mechanisms), try some titegroup.

Don't do much with the crimp. It's not a revolver; if you over-crimp you'll just have problems since the round headspaces on the case mouth.
 
Saskcop, since the OP did not provide his charge weight, how can you suggest upping the charge? It may be a good assumption that his problem derives from a too light charge, but it is only that, an assumption. Recommending increasing a powder charge from an unknown starting point seems, well, reckless.
 
Duh, I just re-read the OP's post, he's using small primer!!

Try to find a few brass cases that use large pistol primer and load those, see what happens!!
 
Don't look too far..you say it yourself - old powder -- W231 does not do that.. it burn completely in .45 ACP. Increasing the crimp just damage the bullet and do not give you any benefit. Chronograph the load..if you have too much variation..just get a new can of powder.
 
I used to ##### about 231 myself until i realized that that i wasn't loading my rounds hot enough. i also use the Win NT and have no issues with this powder and i crimp to .471 on the mouth using LRN and 5.3 gr of 231. I have a looser chamber than most tho. I think i would try "saskcops" approach and jack up the charge to 5.7 and if that does not work i would think you have a powder issue of sorts. Maybe improperly stored and too much humidity may have gotten into the can???
 
Hello guys,

Thanks for every ones excellent reply.
I was initially running my loads with 4.6grains of W231. I moved on up to 5.5 grains and some one suggested ( I tried 5.7 as well ) - No signs of over pressure yet.

I did some burn tests, nice orange open flame and all the powder burns up from the pile......At 5.7 grains I still get unburned powder in my bore.

I am crimping at .470 - So crimp does exist.....I am going to try and buy some WST or WSF or some thing along those lines and see where it gets me.

Thanks guys
 
8675-30-9 said:
I used to ##### about 231 myself until i realized that that i wasn't loading my rounds hot enough. i also use the Win NT and have no issues with this powder and i crimp to .471 on the mouth using LRN and 5.3 gr of 231. I have a looser chamber than most tho. I think i would try "saskcops" approach and jack up the charge to 5.7 and if that does not work i would think you have a powder issue of sorts. Maybe improperly stored and too much humidity may have gotten into the can???
Click to expand...

I tried what you mentioned / sascrop - No luck.
I got the powder free from an old friend......can looks OLD and beat up. Although burn tests provide good results.

I wish they sold small 100gram cans of powder to test LOL

Thanks!
 
how come your seating to such a long overall lenght? your giving up presure there. I load 5 and a bit under a 200 gn swc loaded flush or a 230fmj at 1.23 or 4 (can t remember) very little if any unburned.

That being said, if you decide to seat deeper, back off the charge, function check the seating lenght in your gun and then work up again.
 
Cocked&Locked said:
how come your seating to such a long overall lenght? your giving up presure there. I load 5 and a bit under a 200 gn swc loaded flush or a 230fmj at 1.23 or 4 (can t remember) very little if any unburned.

That being said, if you decide to seat deeper, back off the charge, function check the seating lenght in your gun and then work up again.
Click to expand...

Any more then 1.250 will leave me with no bands to crimp on since I am using tumble lube bullet design, Not ot mention having the round chamber ins waaay to far at 1.230.......ill try it a bit deeper, I suspect the powder is trash.

Thanks
 
I have no experience with a tumble lube bullet or small primers but I've got Some thoughts:
-How do you know its w231? Did you buy it new from a sealed container?
-Was the container left open for any length of time?
-You say no signs of pressure, so whats your chrono reading?
-45 headspaces on the case lip, I wouldn't over crimp.
-The only time I had powder flakes (different powder-same caliber) in a 1911 was when I was trying to come up with a minor load (approx 700 FPS), I stepped it up to 750 and it cleaned right up.
***beware of increasing W231, take small steps as a small amount of powder can increase pressures dramatically***
Just my 2 cents, YMMV.
 
I've had unburnt flakes with 5.5 - 5.6 grains of Win231. 5.1 sounds quite low, while 5.7 - 5.8 sounds about right.

Small or large primer makes no difference. If you don't like the odd occasional flake, load in the 'hotter' range (like full power ammo - not necessarily 'hot' ammo) or try another powder.
 
VooDooMan said:
Any more then 1.250 will leave me with no bands to crimp on since I am using tumble lube bullet design, Not ot mention having the round chamber ins waaay to far at 1.230.......ill try it a bit deeper, I suspect the powder is trash.

Thanks
Click to expand...

you can crimp ahead of the bands, most 45 colt origianl rounds crimped that way. you headspace off the case mouth, not the bullet, so it doens't matter from a seating point of view. If you seat them out that far, you can up your load a bit as it's keeping your pressure down.
 
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