Underpowered, overgunned and idiots

[rem338win]

This is CGN, land of the paper hunter. I didn't expect anyone to believe me I'll take the word of a guy who's killed 60-some griz over 50 years of hunting with nothing bigger than an -06.

I knew an old fella that believed that coyotes are the toughest animal on earth because he shot them with an old ruger mini-14 and fmjs and needed to shoot the wiggle out of them.
He killed hundreds of the buggers in his lifetime. Doesn't make him right, but what he did happened to work.

This is CGN, where people can pass along old wives tales at the speed of internet.

 

[EastBranch]

At the risk of starting a bear defense thread, why do you think the top 2 recommendations are always a 12ga with slugs and a 45-70? Not for their ability to punch thru both sides. Their ability to deliver shock and awe at moderate range. Thumping is better than stabbing, on dangerous game.

CGN, land of the small #####!

 

[1899]

At the risk of starting a bear defense thread, why do you think the top 2 recommendations are always a 12ga with slugs and a 45-70? Not for their ability to punch thru both sides. Their ability to deliver shock and awe at moderate range. Thumping is better than stabbing, on dangerous game.

CGN, land of the small #####!

I've never heard of a serious bear guide using a 12g or 45-70 to back up clients.

Phil Shoemaker - one of the most famous bear guides in Alaska - used a .458 Win Mag until recently. He now uses the .375 Ruger, although I think he also uses the .416 Ruger as well.

 

[MiG25]

Would be interesting to discover how this fellow came to kill more than one grizzly every year for fifty years?

he never said they were legal. also, didn't the yukon used to have a 3 bear limit way back when? i believe alaska did as well. don't know about BC.

 

[rem338win]

At the risk of starting a bear defense thread, why do you think the top 2 recommendations are always a 12ga with slugs and a 45-70? Not for their ability to punch thru both sides. Their ability to deliver shock and awe at moderate range. Thumping is better than stabbing, on dangerous game.

CGN, land of the small #####!

Really? Hmm I wonder why people naturally progressed from hitting eachother with clubs to sticking eachother with swords, spears and arrows......

Most credible "bear men" would argue that you are very wrong, and that the 12ga and 45-70 are good for fishermen.
That said the most recommended load for the 45-70 by credible men is a hard cast or "solid" with a large meplat. The most recommended for the 12ga is the Brenneke load, which is nearly identical in performance to the hardcast/large meplat previously mentioned. Both are noted for penetration, constistant wound channels and two holes.
And the dink comment is ridiculous and hurts any credibility that you thought you brought to the table.

 

[TwoTone]

Put body armor on the animal and shoot it. It absorbs all the energy but I have a funny feeling it won't die (unless the armor gets penetrated..)

I'm in the penetration camp.

 

[Redlich]

yeah, penetration first, then whatever leaves the biggest hole behind. Bullet choice/construction is probably one of the most important considerations for that too.

 

[Why not?]

At the risk of starting a bear defense thread, why do you think the top 2 recommendations are always a 12ga with slugs and a 45-70? Not for their ability to punch thru both sides. Their ability to deliver shock and awe at moderate range. Thumping is better than stabbing, on dangerous game.

CGN, land of the small #####!

This is hilarious!

Ted

 

[Why not?]

he never said they were legal. also, didn't the yukon used to have a 3 bear limit way back when? i believe alaska did as well. don't know about BC.

There has never been a three bear limit for grizzly bear. Well, never is a long time, but certainly not in the last fifty years.

You may be thinking about the actual limit, which is one grizzly bear every three years.

Ted

 

[Northman999]

I read the articles and, honestly, I kind of had a hard time figuring out what the point was, other than the general idea that it is better to err on the side of using more rifle than is needed, instead of less.

The 60 grizzly thing seems like horse poopy to me.

As for the bear defense thing that came up recently, published data I found from BC forest services indicated their research showed the .338 win mag had the highest percentage of one shot stops on bears of anything they had data on. They felt it likely had the best blend of big bullets and speed that a typical hunter could handle. And yes, they did have data from more powerful rifles, but their stopping percentages were lower. They also clearly stated that, based on their information, a shotgun with slugs was not nearly as effective at close range as a medium magnum rifle. A medium magnum was specifically their reccomended bear defense firearm.

 

[Why not?]

......They also clearly stated that, based on their information, a shotgun with slugs was not nearly as effective at close range as a medium magnum rifle.

That is the experience of virtually everyone who has tried both. Slugs are not nearly as effective, hence the reason that no one in NA who deals seriously with truly dangerous game uses them.

Ted

 

[1899]

I read the articles and, honestly, I kind of had a hard time figuring out what the point was, other than the general idea that it is better to err on the side of using more rifle than is needed, instead of less.

Part 1 looks at why some people are undergunned and the causes for being so:

1. "Overgunned" applies only to the hunter, not the animal - if you can't shoot it accurately, you are overgunned;

2. "Undergunned" is harder to define because there are many factors - he talks about the typical W.D. Bell + 6.5 Mannlicher, 7x57 and .318 W-R on elephant stories.
(a) He explains why things were different back in the old days
(b) He explains why those men did things we shouldn't

3. He tells the story of success and failure with the .22 Hornet on Impala

Part 2 talks about what "undergunned" actually means. He breaks it down into two categories - penetration and power.


To me, the point of the article is you can't go wrong using a larger cartridge, unless you, the hunter cannot handle it. If you decide to use a smaller cartridge, then you will have to compensate with patience and the willingness to come home empty handed. BUT, once you get to the point where your bullet cannot pass through an animal on a side shot, you are undergunned.

 

[Northman999]

Part 1 looks at why some people are undergunned and the causes for being so:

1. "Overgunned" applies only to the hunter, not the animal - if you can't shoot it accurately, you are overgunned;

2. "Undergunned" is harder to define because there are many factors - he talks about the typical W.D. Bell + 6.5 Mannlicher, 7x57 and .318 W-R on elephant stories.
(a) He explains why things were different back in the old days
(b) He explains why those men did things we shouldn't

3. He tells the story of success and failure with the .22 Hornet on Impala

Part 2 talks about what "undergunned" actually means. He breaks it down into two categories - penetration and power.


To me, the point of the article is you can't go wrong using a larger cartridge, unless you, the hunter cannot handle it. If you decide to use a smaller cartridge, then you will have to compensate with patience and the willingness to come home empty handed. BUT, once you get to the point where your bullet cannot pass through an animal on a side shot, you are undergunned.

Yes, this seems a very reasonable summary of the article to me.

 

[BigUglyMan]

Wasn't it the USFS that did up a report (some years ago but I remember it coming up on CGN - I've got it around here somewhere) where they concluded that the 30-06 with 220 grain bullets was their best combination for bear defense?

 

[BigUglyMan]

But then the Hunting Rifles forum would have 15 threads in it and there's be no way to derail 85% of new threads into bear defense threads.

I still think that my 9.3x62 with 286gr bullets and iron sights is perfect for bear defense. #hijack #beardefense

Winning at hijacks!

 

[tylerjwitty]

too boring

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Punch holes, destroy tissue, break bones. Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

A concise easy recipe to follow. I like it.

 

[westcoaster]

A gentleman I know in Quesnel tried to kill a cow with a 12 guage by shooting it in the head with a slug at point blank range. He told me that the slug bounced of the cow's skull and stunned it. IIRC he went back to the house and shot it with his 30 30.

Makes me less confident in stopping something with a shotgun.

I subscribe to the wound channel through the lungs school of thought, with a larger hole being better.

 

[troutseeker]

I've never heard of him before but I think he's full of s**t!

Haha, I'm with you! Mind you I used to like Bananarama...

 

[troutseeker]

A gentleman I know in Quesnel tried to kill a cow with a 12 guage by shooting it in the head with a slug at point blank range. He told me that the slug bounced of the cow's skull and stunned it. IIRC he went back to the house and shot it with his 30 30.

Good story, are you sure he was a gentleman? A cow shot in the head at point blank range with a slug should die a rather instant death. Unless it was wearing a cape, maybe...