What are the problems with the Savage rifles? Are they things a total noob would notice?
Understanding the difference between Factory Hunting Rifles
- Thread starter Tytalus
- Start date
What are the problems with the Savage rifles? Are they things a total noob would notice?
If you are going to get really serious about hunting coyotes I would still advise you to really look hard at used gun racks. You'll find really good barely used .222 rifles because well, there isn't any real use for them except for coyotes.
Cougars? I am 59 and grew up on northern Vancouver Island where my dad shot two cougars between 1954 and 1978 right in the town. I've been rambling around the bush for a lot of the past 50 years and can count the number of cougars I've seen on one hand. But, if you want to get cougar hounds and want to go that route, you can hunt cougars. Opportunistically seeing one is a rare event.
Cougars? I am 59 and grew up on northern Vancouver Island where my dad shot two cougars between 1954 and 1978 right in the town. I've been rambling around the bush for a lot of the past 50 years and can count the number of cougars I've seen on one hand. But, if you want to get cougar hounds and want to go that route, you can hunt cougars. Opportunistically seeing one is a rare event.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Hi All, total newb here. I'm doing some research to understand what kind of gun will best fit my needs. I've got a friend with some land near the boonies that we can start hunting on, and if the game is scarce it's a short drive to the end of civilization. We're looking at shooting anything really, but probably small game and coyotes to start out with, then maybe a deer or a black bear next year. From what I've read, I probably need 2 or 3 different calibers (say 0.17 , 0.223 and a 0.30-06) for the range of game that is available. (Southwest BC, Canada)
I don't want to make a huge purchase with a gun that I eventually learn to hate due to being the wrong fit, nor do I want to by a cheap gun that soon becomes more hindrance than help. I haven't had an opportunity to spend some time on a range and get a feel for different guns, I think that will likely help out a lot. I have a budget, and a wife who is nominally supportive, but frequent gun purchases to find the "right fit" will go over poorly.
What I'd really like to do is buy the right gun once, (per caliber anyway), and maybe in 15 years pass it on to one of my kids if I upgrade to some fancy $5000+ custom job.
So, as part of this, one thing that has not been well clarified from at all what I've read is what is actually gained by buying an expensive (say ~1200-2000) gun vs a mid range gun (700 to 1100) vs an "entry level" gun (<700) ?
Also, how noticeable are these differences? I'm thinking of the difference in terms what manufacturers in general change as the price increases.
If anyone knows of any articles talking about this, I'd love to read them, I haven't been able to find any after numerous Google searches. Thanks in advance.
Kudos for approaching this question in a thoughtful manner. One point you omitted from your post is your rifle shooting experience. Thus we must assume that you are at the novice level, so my apologies if this is not the case. Because you intend your rifle to be used on big game, I suggest you don't choose a cartridge smaller than 6.5 mm (.260") caliber or larger in case volume or caliber than the .30/06.
My personal preference is the bolt action, but the bolt's not the only answer to the problem, its just my answer. Other actions have their advantages and their champions. The hunting rifle must fit you, but something that can't be measured is how it feels and whether of not it catches your imagination. The best rifle in the world isn't the best for you, if it doesn't grab you.
But lets start with cartridge choice. You are looking for a versatile cartridge, and versatility can be measured a few ways. The first and most obvious measure is the selection of factory loads that are available. The other is the question of whether or not you intend to handload, and the selection of components that are available for your cartridge. Provided you choose a moderate capacity cartridge, it doesn't really matter which one, if you're basically after a deer rifle. Simply adapt to the cartridge that your rifle of choice happens to be chambered for. Moderate capacity cartridges between 6.5 and .30 caliber when loaded with mid weight bullets for caliber, pretty much all perform within the same envelope. For example, a 125 gr 6,5, a 130 gr .270, a 140 gr 7mm, and a 150 gr .308 loaded to a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps are all suitable for deer sized game. If used for small game, all of these cartridges, even when loaded with light bullets will be excessively destructive, the answer here is handloading. An investment in handloading tools cost less than a good quality rifle, and the increase in versatility you can achieve through handloading, means you can do all your shooting with a single rifle, rather than with 3 different rifles. Inexpensive jacketed bullets or cast bullets loaded between 1200 and 1800 fps, are suitable for any eating size small game. But avoid cartridges that are larger than .30 caliber or any cartridge with the word magnum attached to its designation.
There are many quality rifles to choose from, once you've determined the action type, stock material and style, barrel length, and style of sights that you want. My son's rifle is a left hand Ruger Hawkeye in .270. My grandson has a 98 Mauser in 7-08 waiting for him. My wife has a custom Husqvarna 1640 carbine in .30/06, and I have a Brno ZG-47 in .30/06. Any of these rifles be fine choices, but only the Ruger is currently manufactured. Keep this in mind, it is less expensive to purchase a lightly used rifle, than it is to purchase a new rifle of equal quality.
Boomer, my rifle experience is limited to shooting a friend's BB gun when I was a teenager on his nut farm. Yes, a farm that grew hazel nuts. The jokes and puns were endless.
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Maybe, maybe not.
You did mention wanting a rifle to last decades and maybe pass down. I strongly believe that a Savage will not be satisfying in the long run and is utterly unsuitable as an heirloom rifle. There are MUCH better options listed in my above post.
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Boomer, my rifle experience is limited to shooting a friend's BB gun when I was a teenager on his nut farm. Yes, a farm that grew hazel nuts. The jokes and puns were endless.
h ttp://ca.wholesalesports.com/storefront/winchester/home/hunting/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/c0-c10-c101-c10102-b100740-p1.html
h ttp://ca.wholesalesports.com/storefront/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/vanguard-series-2-synthetic/prod21139.html
h ttp://ca.wholesalesports.com/storefront/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/x-bolt-composite-stalker/prod249759.html
(change that one to blued in the options)
All fall within your price range and are fine rifles.
Ergonomics:
A new cheap gun may do everything more expensive guns do but expect the controls or anything you touch on the gun
to be rough or less refined than more expensive models.
Bad triggers unfinished parts and sharpedges are what you get if you go cheap.
A cheap gun is a hinderance to good shooting.
Asthetics:
Mid range guns look great by comparison but beauty is only skin deep.
Mostly you will find that this group of rifles is made from the same design as the cheaper product.
You do get more options however and thats a good thing eg: magazines,floorplates ,metal,stocks,sights,triggers etc.
Economics:
Everything must be made cheap but a rifle may be expected to handle pressures in excess of 60000 psi tens of thousands of times
so scrimping on safety will only get them sued or at least a bunch of bad press(good).Thank the lawyers.
This is why Winchester and Marlin lever actions have more safeties than when they were new(bad).
There are two ways to make stuff cheap.
1)Design it cheap,all rifles currently made are compromised by your inability to pay for all the expensive forging, machining and hand labour required to make it the best.Stampings and castings are good enough don't worry.
If your gun was well designed they can lay off a bunch of people who previously were involved in stuff like QC.
2)Add cheap parts and cut back labour.
You might not notice unless you spend time looking at older guns but stuff like butplates sights and
magazine followers get replaced with cheaper versions over time.
Plastic parts are cheap to produce and don't require polishing or fitting "ka ching".
You will see lots of rifles on the rack that are matte blued and its not because its more rust resistant.
Once the price gets to 1500.00 you should expect a really nice level of fit and finish
but you will also be paying for the name.
A new cheap gun may do everything more expensive guns do but expect the controls or anything you touch on the gun
to be rough or less refined than more expensive models.
Bad triggers unfinished parts and sharpedges are what you get if you go cheap.
A cheap gun is a hinderance to good shooting.
Asthetics:
Mid range guns look great by comparison but beauty is only skin deep.
Mostly you will find that this group of rifles is made from the same design as the cheaper product.
You do get more options however and thats a good thing eg: magazines,floorplates ,metal,stocks,sights,triggers etc.
Economics:
Everything must be made cheap but a rifle may be expected to handle pressures in excess of 60000 psi tens of thousands of times
so scrimping on safety will only get them sued or at least a bunch of bad press(good).Thank the lawyers.
This is why Winchester and Marlin lever actions have more safeties than when they were new(bad).
There are two ways to make stuff cheap.
1)Design it cheap,all rifles currently made are compromised by your inability to pay for all the expensive forging, machining and hand labour required to make it the best.Stampings and castings are good enough don't worry.
If your gun was well designed they can lay off a bunch of people who previously were involved in stuff like QC.
2)Add cheap parts and cut back labour.
You might not notice unless you spend time looking at older guns but stuff like butplates sights and
magazine followers get replaced with cheaper versions over time.
Plastic parts are cheap to produce and don't require polishing or fitting "ka ching".
You will see lots of rifles on the rack that are matte blued and its not because its more rust resistant.
Once the price gets to 1500.00 you should expect a really nice level of fit and finish
but you will also be paying for the name.
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ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Do you want a rifle with stamped or cast parts which could contain voids and break (Savage) up to and including the bolt handle?
Do you want your trigger group to be made of cast parts which are only hardened on the surface?
Would you like a receiver that is machined out of a piece of bar stock or one that is FORGED and machined with a nice flat bottom?
What kind of bluing would you like? Something that is just kind of finished up in a big tumbler (Savage et al) or something that is polished?
Do you want a stainless rifle with cheap 'blued' cast trigger parts or do you want a rifle that has nice stainless steel trigger parts?
Do you want a kludge of a trigger designed to limit liability and fool the unknowledgable (accu-trigger) or do you want a trigger that is actually designed really well?
Do you want a flat chamber face with a barrel that screws on with a giant external nut? Maybe you don't mind the possibility of a round binding up on that?
Do you want a reliable blade ejector or do you want to deal with plunger type?
Do you want a proper claw that will grip more than 1/4 of a case and extract it positively or do you want a tiny little tab that sits on top of a ball bearing and spring?
Do you want to buy from a manufacturer who brags at the SHOT show that each rifle is only seen by humans for less than 1.5 minutes?
Do you want a rifle that a google search will turn up complaints about any number of defects up to and including the receiver being warped and impossible to mount a scope, barrel missing rifling, trigger will trip when closing the bolt handle etc or do you want one where you can't find accounts like this?
Depending on how you answer these questions, you will know what type of hunting rifle you should buy.
Do you want your trigger group to be made of cast parts which are only hardened on the surface?
Would you like a receiver that is machined out of a piece of bar stock or one that is FORGED and machined with a nice flat bottom?
What kind of bluing would you like? Something that is just kind of finished up in a big tumbler (Savage et al) or something that is polished?
Do you want a stainless rifle with cheap 'blued' cast trigger parts or do you want a rifle that has nice stainless steel trigger parts?
Do you want a kludge of a trigger designed to limit liability and fool the unknowledgable (accu-trigger) or do you want a trigger that is actually designed really well?
Do you want a flat chamber face with a barrel that screws on with a giant external nut? Maybe you don't mind the possibility of a round binding up on that?
Do you want a reliable blade ejector or do you want to deal with plunger type?
Do you want a proper claw that will grip more than 1/4 of a case and extract it positively or do you want a tiny little tab that sits on top of a ball bearing and spring?
Do you want to buy from a manufacturer who brags at the SHOT show that each rifle is only seen by humans for less than 1.5 minutes?
Do you want a rifle that a google search will turn up complaints about any number of defects up to and including the receiver being warped and impossible to mount a scope, barrel missing rifling, trigger will trip when closing the bolt handle etc or do you want one where you can't find accounts like this?
Depending on how you answer these questions, you will know what type of hunting rifle you should buy.
Ok, that is the level of information I was curious about Re: The problems with Savages. Seems like little things that could irritate a person over time.
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
That doesn't all apply to Savage although most of it does. I have had so many defective Savages that I will never consider another. Even if it worked perfectly, it's still a cheap rifle.
A lot of those things apply to other manufacturers' rifles in the same price range...
A lot of those things apply to other manufacturers' rifles in the same price range...
awesomeame
Regular
- Location
- Etobicoke, Ontario
Don't believe all reviews. Just cause the reviewer likes something, doesn't mean YOU will. Remember everyone is out there trying to sell you, first time hunter, product. They're going to sell you every little thing and gadget and try to convince you need this and that feature. If you bought everything with good reviews you'd need a huge truck to deliver you and your gear to a stand lol. Just read all reviews with a grain of salt is what I'm saying. First thing I did with my one, only & last savage was remove that silly accutrigger and had the trigger pull lightened and smoothened. POS, I'll never get another. But that's just me, and I'm used to shooting Kimbers. Maybe you'll love it, give it a try and see. But don't buy til you try
Matt
Matt
So I'm guessing the guns you mentioned earlier don't have many of the above problems?
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Anything can come from a factory with a defect. I do believe those rifles mentioned benefit from far superior Quality Control.
They also don't have any of those issues with design and materials, no.
They also don't have any of those issues with design and materials, no.
They just have other (ideally, lesser) problems/criticisms. Seems no gun is 100% perfect, probably hence all the aftermarket modifications.
Out of curiousity how did you learn all of this useful info?
I've just got to throw this observation in here.
I've had six or seven Savage centerfires over the years, and still have two. I think they are well worth they money that they cost. One of those rifles had a manufacturing defect, and was quickly replaced with a brand-new, functionally-perfect rifle. Were these guns beautiful? Far from it. They were in almost every case exceptionally accurate. Of the two that I still have, one has the Accutrigger and the other is equipped with the Target Accutrigger. These aren't the best triggers in the world...but they are the best out-of-the-box trigger that I've ever felt on guns in this price range. Do these guns take manufacturing shortcuts to keep prices down? Of course they do...but for the money that you pay for one, you get an accurate rifle with a very shootable trigger.
For hunting around home, for predators, varmints, deer, etc. I don't hesitate to use one. Would I take one to Alaska or Africa? Absolutely not...but that's not what I bought them for. Would I buy another? Absolutely.
For the record, I have had two Kimbers...beautiful, nicely finished guns. Both had triggers that needed adjustment. Neither shot well. One would not feed any type of ammo. Resolving that issue through Kimber took a looooong time. In no way did those two guns fulfill the role which I envisioned for them, i.e. a finely finished, attractive, accurate gun that I would entrust with a once-in-a-lifetime shot on a hunt far from home. Would I buy another? Not a prayer.
Remingtons? Ask anyone...they're crap...they go off by themselves and shoot people...except I've had dozens, and although triggers usually needed work, they were generally reliable, accurate guns. How is this possible? How can my perception of them be so wrong?
Long story short: you usually get what you pay for. Sometimes, like with my Savages, you may get a little more. And other times, like my Kimbers, you get way less. Try a bunch of guns, and get the one that gives you the most of what you consider important, for the money you want to spend.
And don't believe anything you read on the internet.
I've had six or seven Savage centerfires over the years, and still have two. I think they are well worth they money that they cost. One of those rifles had a manufacturing defect, and was quickly replaced with a brand-new, functionally-perfect rifle. Were these guns beautiful? Far from it. They were in almost every case exceptionally accurate. Of the two that I still have, one has the Accutrigger and the other is equipped with the Target Accutrigger. These aren't the best triggers in the world...but they are the best out-of-the-box trigger that I've ever felt on guns in this price range. Do these guns take manufacturing shortcuts to keep prices down? Of course they do...but for the money that you pay for one, you get an accurate rifle with a very shootable trigger.
For hunting around home, for predators, varmints, deer, etc. I don't hesitate to use one. Would I take one to Alaska or Africa? Absolutely not...but that's not what I bought them for. Would I buy another? Absolutely.
For the record, I have had two Kimbers...beautiful, nicely finished guns. Both had triggers that needed adjustment. Neither shot well. One would not feed any type of ammo. Resolving that issue through Kimber took a looooong time. In no way did those two guns fulfill the role which I envisioned for them, i.e. a finely finished, attractive, accurate gun that I would entrust with a once-in-a-lifetime shot on a hunt far from home. Would I buy another? Not a prayer.
Remingtons? Ask anyone...they're crap...they go off by themselves and shoot people...except I've had dozens, and although triggers usually needed work, they were generally reliable, accurate guns. How is this possible? How can my perception of them be so wrong?
Long story short: you usually get what you pay for. Sometimes, like with my Savages, you may get a little more. And other times, like my Kimbers, you get way less. Try a bunch of guns, and get the one that gives you the most of what you consider important, for the money you want to spend.
And don't believe anything you read on the internet.
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I had an opportunity to examine this rifle in detail today:
http://www.sako.fi/sako85models.php?bavarian
Wow. Just wow. This should be at the top of everyone's list. It makes nearly everything else look like it came from a junkyard. This includes the Win M70 Supergrade and the Mark V Deluxe....
The craftsmanship is just that good!
http://www.sako.fi/sako85models.php?bavarian
Wow. Just wow. This should be at the top of everyone's list. It makes nearly everything else look like it came from a junkyard. This includes the Win M70 Supergrade and the Mark V Deluxe....
The craftsmanship is just that good!
A rifle you don't hear anyone bragging about much, or hear them complaining is a Ruger, very well built, reliable accurate rifles!
I would recommend Winchester, Sako, Tikka, Remington, Browning, Weatherby, Ruger, CZ, and many more. decide how much you want to spend and handle as many as possible before you choose. Make sure it fits most of all, get one in your chambering of choice, 30-06 would suit your needs it seems. Save enough for quality glass and bases/rings if the rifle didn't come with a set.
Even if you don't buy a new one, handle as many as a gun store will let you. Tradex has lots of quality rifles that I am sure will not disappoint in 30-06, among others.
Listen to these folks here, especially folks like Boomer, and you will make a decision that will leave a smile on your face.
No one here can make the decision for you, just offer advice. Weed through all the replies and you will see a trend, that is usually the answer you are looking for.
Happy hunting!
Bill
I would recommend Winchester, Sako, Tikka, Remington, Browning, Weatherby, Ruger, CZ, and many more. decide how much you want to spend and handle as many as possible before you choose. Make sure it fits most of all, get one in your chambering of choice, 30-06 would suit your needs it seems. Save enough for quality glass and bases/rings if the rifle didn't come with a set.
Even if you don't buy a new one, handle as many as a gun store will let you. Tradex has lots of quality rifles that I am sure will not disappoint in 30-06, among others.
Listen to these folks here, especially folks like Boomer, and you will make a decision that will leave a smile on your face.
No one here can make the decision for you, just offer advice. Weed through all the replies and you will see a trend, that is usually the answer you are looking for.
Happy hunting!
Bill
