UPDATE Post23 w-PICS RE Setup for CZ457 V-MTR w/ A-419 30MOA rail + Athlon Argos 8-34

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Buck1950

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UPDATE @ POST-23 w-targets = = SOLUTION TO ISSUE AT POST 16
Hello all, I'm having trouble understanding the setup above. The specs for the Argos shows ca. 80MOA Total Elevation but I'm unable to get a 'crosshair Zero' at 50 or 100yds. I still have to hold about 2MOA 'above crosshair' at 100yds. I used the YT video from Area-419 "Max MOA" to determine my setup 'should work' and questioned them via a 'Comment' but they have not replied. I also sent an email to the Athlon vendor I bought the scope from and have not heard back (only 1 day so far). Below is the edited msg I sent to the vendor. I'm hoping to hear from some 'Enquiring minds' here to get opinions as to whether I'm on the right track.

EDIT 5/08/2023 -> The Problem was MY believing the reticle showed the TOTAL Elevation available, when the SPECS actually said ONLY 45-MOA Total. So, I intend getting the Burris Insert set to ADD MOA. More Info at Post #16.

"Hi - I got an Athlon Argos G2 8-34x56 from you and mounted it on my CZ457 V-MTR .22LR and Area419 30MOA base with Med generic rings that are 0.973" rail to ring-center (about 0.073 taller than Vortex Pro Low rings I have on other scopes). I finally was able to get to the range last week(... my range had a foot of snow and bad weather until the last couple weeks). I’m having trouble getting a ‘proper crosshair Zero’ at reasonable distances. The scope has about 80 MOA total vertical per specs, but when I remove the Zero-stop and crank all the way DOWN I still have to hold above crosshairs 8MOA for 50yd and 2MOA at 100yds when actually shooting. It seems the scope may not be 'Optically Zeroed' since I should have about 70MOA available (40 for scope and 30 for rail), and this is not the case since I can't Zero at 100. I’m firing SK+ which only has about 6-7” drop at 100 so should be within the ‘Zero-range’ of this scope/rail setup.
Am I missing something in understanding this math? I checked Area 419 Y-T video “Max MOA”, and they indicate about ½ or less of Total Elevation of the scope ‘should be’ correct for Zeroing. I ‘commented’ on the YT site for the vid and their responder did not understand that I had ‘run the Elevation Down’ and has not replied since I pointed that out. Maybe I got him confused as well. OR is it possible that ‘my scope’ is incorrectly calibrated, in that it may NOT have the total 80MOA.
If you can explain what’s happening, please advise. I’m considering getting some Burris Signature Zee rings ( # 420588) with a complete set of inserts. The Burris site indicates that the 'Distance between rings' can give varied MOA results depending on which inserts are inserted. This should be able to allow me to Zero out to 200 yds or more if I understand this math. I checked your website and found the rings, but it doesn’t indicate if the complete set of inserts is included. Please advise if those are available, as I would like to continue to deal with you folks.
Please let me know what you consider my best option with this as I'm eager to 'dial this scope in' properly. "
Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Does anyone think there is a problem with the scope, or is it Just my understanding of the setup ??
PS - I've posted this same msg on RFC, after quite a bit of research on many forums w/o finding a similar situation.
Many thanks to all >
 
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Never had an issue with my Athlon scopes on my 1000yd rig and my CZ 452.

If you didn’t have a level on the 419 rail , my first guess would be that you had it on backwards.

Running Burris XTR signatures I am zeroed at 50 and can run crosshairs out past 450 yds with my CZ452 with CCI standards

Check your installation (scope is pointed down towards the barrel) and then as mentioned try some Burris signature rings
 
Like 280_Ackley, I’m also running a CZ with an Athlon. CZ457 with the 419 30moa rail and I’m also using the Burris XTR rings on my 1st gen Athlon Argos BTR to dial out as much ‘lower’ elevation as I can. I have a 20yd zero (for my indoor range) and it only goes up from there. It’s perfect for me.

Check your install to be sure it looks solid. Post pics if you can. Also, I’m wondering about your generic rings. Maybe they are made wrong or have built in 20 moa slant or something like that? As 280_Ackley says, make sure the scope is pointed down toward the barrel.

IMG-5950.jpg
 
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Buck1950 said:
Hello all, I'm having trouble understanding the setup above. The specs for the Argos shows ca. 80MOA Total Elevation but I'm unable to get a 'crosshair Zero' at 50 or 100yds.
I still have to hold about 2MOA 'above crosshair' at 100yds.

Area419 30MOA base

The scope has about 80 MOA total vertical per specs, but when I remove the Zero-stop and crank all the way DOWN I still have to hold above crosshairs 8MOA for 50yd and 2MOA at 100yds when actually shooting. It seems the scope may not be 'Optically Zeroed' since I should have about 70MOA available (40 for scope and 30 for rail), and this is not the case since I can't Zero at 100. I’m firing SK+ which only has about 6-7” drop at 100 so should be within the ‘Zero-range’ of this scope/rail setup.
Click to expand...

So the situation is clear, is the following correct?

At 50 yards, the rifle with the rail and scope shoots about 8" high. There's no room to adjust the crosshairs down.

At 100 yards, the rifle shoots about 2" high and there's no room to adjust the crosshairs down.
 
grauhanen said:
So the situation is clear, is the following correct?

At 50 yards, the rifle with the rail and scope shoots about 8" high. There's no room to adjust the crosshairs down.

At 100 yards, the rifle shoots about 2" high and there's no room to adjust the crosshairs down.
Click to expand...

Yes, That's right. I have 2 options it seems . . . 1) I hear from the vendor (a sponsor) saying this is normal OR they feel the scope is at fault
OR 2) I just go with the Burris Sigs as I said above, since that 'should' fix the issue. The 'generic rings' are some I had on hand and they fit w/o robbing another gun. Getting new rings is an easy option and may be the route I follow.
PS - As I said, I posted the same msg on RFC in the Rimfire Precision forum. I've received similar comments from many there as well. However, most on both forums are indicating my setup should be working with the total available MOA with the rail and scope (ca 70 MOA total).
I hope to hear from either the vendor or A-419 for their viewpoint as well.
 
I just bought similar Zee rings, they came with 2 pair of inserts, 2 +10 halves and 2 -10 halves, others are available though a dealer may have the 'gunsmith assortment tray' from Burris with multiples of 5, 10, 20 etc

Burris XTR rings come with a full asst of inserts
 
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Would be interesting to see results of more testing with you rset-up
dialling the elevation on your scope, how much travel is there top to bottom?
 
Just for more 'back story', when I first mounted the scope I laser-boresighted at ca 50 yds (in the evening) and the scope showed High ca 14" and Right ca 6-8". I cranked down the Elevation and got down to 7-8" High and 'close' to Center. Then when I went to fire at the range, my first shot at 50 yds was 7-8" High and ca 3-4" Right. I was able to get the Windage Zeroed but the Height was maxed Down and remained ca 8" High. I got 2x groups of 5 near 1/2". At 100 I was able to get 1 - 1.5" groups by holding on the 7-8MOA Hash mark above the crosshair and the Windage was still 'On'.
PS - The rings are only0.073 higher than the Vortex Pro LOW rings I have on other guns.
PS - There's still lotsa space above the barrel, even with flip-cap on, so I can adjust a lot there with B-rings. And a pic of the 50yd target.
View attachment 678846
View attachment 678847
 
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just looking into the scope specs now, that scope is no longer on the Athlon site, but the similar in mils w/30 mm tube has 13 mil total elev. which = only ~43 moa
 
boxhitch - When I go to this page -> I see the pics of the reticle showing 40 Up and Down, altho it dies show the reticle is no longer avail. And the spec sheets and 'Reticle manual' agree with that 40+/-. The Mil spec sheet shows 18Mil +/- which is quite a bit more, too late tonite for math but I'll stand on the 40MOA for now. The target shows that the +8 MOA hold works @ 50, so I believe the reticle :confused: I think ??
Opinions
https://athlonoptics.com/product/argos-btr-gen2-8-34x56-aplr2-ffp-ir-moa/

http s://athlonoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Athlon-APMR-FFP-IR-MIL-Reticle-Manual-Argos-BTR-GEN2.pdf
 
I just checked my gen 1 Argos. With the Area 419 30 moa base, ??? moa inserts with the Burris XTR rings, 20 yd zero, I can go 0.3 mils down and 15.6 mils up on the turrets. Total turret range is about 54 moa. I’m ignoring the reticle.
 
Not sure how I missed that
but that is the reticle markings, good for hold-over and under, the actual elevation on the scope spec sheet says total adjustment available is 45 moa
https://athlonoptics.com/wp-content...2-FFP-IR-MOA-214067-RIFLESCOPE-SPEC-SHEET.pdf
the turrets moves the entire reticle up/down, left/right

I am seeing where some confusion is in play, I get it, I'm just picking this dialing/reticle thing up myself, thus the interest in your problem
 
I think the confusion might be the amount of travel your scope has. The spec Athlon lists for elevation and windage is the total travel, not the travel on either side of center. So your Argos will have about 45 moa total, 22.5 moa on either side of being centered. A 20 moa rail would probably be a better option, and should let you zero your scope at 50 yards.
Kristian
 
Buck1950 said:
Yes, That's right. I have 2 options it seems . . . 1) I hear from the vendor (a sponsor) saying this is normal OR they feel the scope is at fault
OR 2) I just go with the Burris Sigs as I said above, since that 'should' fix the issue. The 'generic rings' are some I had on hand and they fit w/o robbing another gun. Getting new rings is an easy option and may be the route I follow.
PS - As I said, I posted the same msg on RFC in the Rimfire Precision forum. I've received similar comments from many there as well. However, most on both forums are indicating my setup should be working with the total available MOA with the rail and scope (ca 70 MOA total).
I hope to hear from either the vendor or A-419 for their viewpoint as well.
Click to expand...


It seems there are three or four possible explanations for the problem. Some may be less likely than others. There may be a combination of issues.

1. The scope has an internal issue that prevents it from providing the full adjustment range of about 40 MOA up or down. An uncentered reticle that has the crosshairs too low or high can cause problems with adjustment range.

2. The rail is not 30 MOA elevation, it's something more. This is probably not the case, but it's possible.

3. The scope rings are at fault and are themselves adding elevation. This possibility, which doesn't seem likely, can be eliminated by reversing the rings and determining if the excessive elevation continues to exist.

4. The rifle itself. Has it been used with another scope and had no elevation concerns? If not, it's possible that the receiver-to-barrel alignment is not what it should be. This would be the opposite of barrel droop. The barrel may be "pointing too high" to put it in general terms.
 
++ SOLUTION FOUND ++ I hope?

turbo_bird said:
I think the confusion might be the amount of travel your scope has. The spec Athlon lists for elevation and windage is the total travel, not the travel on either side of center. So your Argos will have about 45 moa total, 22.5 moa on either side of being centered. A 20 moa rail would probably be a better option, and should let you zero your scope at 50 yards.
Kristian
Click to expand...

turbo_bird - It looks like you've found MY error. I've been assuming that with the reticle showing+ a hair in UP & DOWN , that this indicated the Total Travel. I'd not looked at the Spec Sheet for that info. It DOES show 45 Total. So it's way over the suggested MOA A-419 rail ratio. Looks like I'll be getting the Burris w/inserts. I've checked several pages of inet search and Stoeger seems to be the only dealer selling the 'complete' insert set w/rings. I'll be contacting them to order some. And I'll post update when I mount them.
Thanks for showing me this And Thanks to all who gave me their advice. Lots of good info came from this.
Buck
 
PS - If I would have looked for Specs instead of believing the reticle was the actual MOA available, I would have spent a bit more for a scope upgrade. Now I have to drop that increased cost on the rings, tho that may be the better route to follow. I was planning on about 3/4 the B cost for Vortex Pro rings anyway.
 
Buck1950 said:
turbo_bird - It looks like you've found MY error. I've been assuming that with the reticle showing+ a hair in UP & DOWN , that this indicated the Total Travel. I'd not looked at the Spec Sheet for that info. It DOES show 45 Total. So it's way over the suggested MOA A-419 rail ratio. Looks like I'll be getting the Burris w/inserts. I've checked several pages of inet search and Stoeger seems to be the only dealer selling the 'complete' insert set w/rings. I'll be contacting them to order some. And I'll post update when I mount them.
Thanks for showing me this And Thanks to all who gave me their advice. Lots of good info came from this.
Buck
Click to expand...

The Burris XTR Signature rings should all come with a full set of the offset inserts, but the rings aren't exactly cheap. I almost choked at the price of a set of 34mm last year, I think I got them from SFRC during one of their 16% off sale weekends.
Kristian
 
turbo_bird said:
The Burris XTR Signature rings should all come with a full set of the offset inserts, but the rings aren't exactly cheap. I almost choked at the price of a set of 34mm last year, I think I got them from SFRC during one of their 16% off sale weekends.
Kristian
Click to expand...

The 34's are spendy alright. Not sure what inserts are available for that size. I bought kits (basically a box with all the sizes in it, 4 of each I think) for 1 inch and 30mm. Maybe something like that is available for the 34's, I don't know. - dan
 
Buck1950 said:
PS - If I would have looked for Specs instead of believing the reticle was the actual MOA available, I would have spent a bit more for a scope upgrade. Now I have to drop that increased cost on the rings, tho that may be the better route to follow. I was planning on about 3/4 the B cost for Vortex Pro rings anyway.
Click to expand...

A scope with a maximum of only 45 MOA of elevation isn't well suited for .22LR shooting at both shorter and longer distances.

Changing to a 20 MOA rail may be less costly than Burris Signature rings and will allow zeroing at 50 and 100. It would allow zeroing up to about 200 yards.

With the 30 MOA rail the Burris offset inserts would have to be used to lower the POI in order to zero at 50 and 100.
 
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