Updated Different Technique Results: Anyone use powder scoops for load development?

RonR

Regular
Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
25   0   0
Location
Saskatoon
Into a bit more load development to try some different combinations for my sons rifles.

Using the scoop that came with the lee die kit with different powders. and I know I may be one of the few that doesn't have an electronic powder dispenser...:(

Finding this really convenient for runs of 20 rounds or less.

Anyone still use these? Any tips to share for getting consistent volumes?

The most repeatable I've achieved is 4 in a row within .4 grain before trickling up on the scale with a bit of extra diligence. The rest are all over in a run of 20 or so.

Regards
Ronr
 
Last edited:
I use them and have never been able to get consistent volumes.

What I do is to scoop and weigh each load using a tickler or I sometimes use the scoop to trickle to the desired load.

It is relaxing for me as there is no buzzing of a machine and I can throw a load in about 10 to 15 seconds most of the time depending on the powder. The odd time I get the exact load.
My tip is to relax and take the time but keep your mind on what you are doing.

David
 
Yes, I have two of the Lee dipper sets, a very old one and one of the newer sets marked in CC's. they work just fine for making test loads. I prefer an electronic scale but I do not have a power metering device, just manual trickler and a lee scoop, or my volumetric Hornady measure. Works fine for me.
 
I have them, but they're used to measure out slightly less than the desired charge weight. Once that's in the scale pan, then I trickle up to the exact weight I want.
I don't use a powder measure other than the scoops either. I didn't see any point in buying one knowing I'd be trickling each charge anyway.
At $15 for a set of scoops, they do exactly what I need them for.
 
When I get a load that works well with a certain powder and bullet, I just fill a case to that level, mark it carefully, dump the powder, then cut the case off at that level and solder a copper wire to it as a handle. (And label it). That way I get custom scoops for each load I need. The rifles I leave a grain low, so I can top them up for accuracy, but the pistols I just dump and go. (Having weighed enough of them to be confident in the results of course)
 
I started using them at the beginning but moved to a Balance scale and then to a Electronic.. I could not get consistent measures in a timely fashion
 
Thanks for the responses all. For clarity these are used to get into the ball park and trickle from there.

I also use them to load up small batch's. Can't be beat

I have them, but they're used to measure out slightly less than the desired charge weight. Once that's in the scale pan, then I trickle up to the exact weight I want.
I don't use a powder measure other than the scoops either. I didn't see any point in buying one knowing I'd be trickling each charge anyway.
At $15 for a set of scoops, they do exactly what I need them for.

The simplicity is what's got me Chilly and Zuke. Simple things for simple minds I guess for myself. Having trouble ignoring it. Trying to see how repeatable I can get. Guess there's no sage's out there with a tip or two. :confused:

and RePete, understood. :)

Regards
Ronr
 
When I get a load that works well with a certain powder and bullet, I just fill a case to that level, mark it carefully, dump the powder, then cut the case off at that level and solder a copper wire to it as a handle. (And label it). That way I get custom scoops for each load I need. The rifles I leave a grain low, so I can top them up for accuracy, but the pistols I just dump and go. (Having weighed enough of them to be confident in the results of course)

Now this is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I realize that scoops are a volumetric measurement and accuracy by weight would have a high tolerance but I have to ask...do the modified cases brands match the same case brands you are putting the powder into? Different case manufacturers have different volumes correct?

As well, do you have modified scoop cases for each type of powder? Ball vs. stick etc for a particular rifle?

Last thing...what kind of container/vessel do you use to have the depth to scoop a case into? There's some geometry and mechanics that I've had issues with and cant come up with something (shape and depth) that is ideal.

Neat idea fabricating/customizing.

Regards
Ronr
 
Now this is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I realize that scoops are a volumetric measurement and accuracy by weight would have a high tolerance but I have to ask...do the modified cases brands match the same case brands you are putting the powder into? Different case manufacturers have different volumes correct?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I develop the load based on weight (electronic scale), ignoring volume. Then I grab any old case (often not even the same caliber) and put that much weight of powder into it. It’s actually better to use a larger caliber case to avoid the bottleneck. For instance, I’ll use a 30-06 case for 308, so when I cut it off, I remove the bottle neck, making for easier scooping. Not necessary for pistol cases of course.

As well, do you have modified scoop cases for each type of powder? Ball vs. stick etc for a particular rifle?

Each scoop is load specific to a particular powder/bullet combo. Using a different powder would screw things up. I just label them with the page number from my reloading journal.

Last thing...what kind of container/vessel do you use to have the depth to scoop a case into? There's some geometry and mechanics that I've had issues with and cant come up with something (shape and depth) that is ideal.

Well the 1lb containers work fine for pistol, but not so much for rifle. The trick is to wait until your wife looks the other way, then sneak into the China cabinet and steal that ugly porcelain sugar dish that Great Aunt Bertha left you (God rest her soul), and run it down to the reloading room and dump half a pound of powder into it. ;-P

Any old dish or bowl works. Just give it a good wash before putting it back on active duty.
 
Scoops only give you the number of grains'ish.[/QUOTE]

That's the exact phrase to use.

David

Yes it is. :d



Sorry, I should have been more clear. I develop the load based on weight (electronic scale), ignoring volume. Then I grab any old case (often not even the same caliber) and put that much weight of powder into it. It’s actually better to use a larger caliber case to avoid the bottleneck. For instance, I’ll use a 30-06 case for 308, so when I cut it off, I remove the bottle neck, making for easier scooping. Not necessary for pistol cases of course.



Each scoop is load specific to a particular powder/bullet combo. Using a different powder would screw things up. I just label them with the page number from my reloading journal.



Well the 1lb containers work fine for pistol, but not so much for rifle. The trick is to wait until your wife looks the other way, then sneak into the China cabinet and steal that ugly porcelain sugar dish that Great Aunt Bertha left you (God rest her soul), and run it down to the reloading room and dump half a pound of powder into it. ;-P

Any old dish or bowl works. Just give it a good wash before putting it back on active duty.

Thanks for clarity and nice work. Sincerely.

That last part...lmao. I've been waiting for that moment when the wife ain't looking. There's some gems in there that she wouldn't know were missing. :slap: One day that will be worth pain for the laugh alone! lol There's a gravy boat that's perfect I think.

Best Regards KJ.

Ron
 
Powder scoops really aren't that much different than a powder throw. They can be incredibly consistent when they are used properly. More often than not the people using them DON'T know how to use them.

The idea predates smokeless powder. When you look at black powder load manuals, one of the things they mention is volume, rather than weight is important. Not so with black powder which is usually more precise with burn rates. We all know burn rates can and do differ from lot to lot with smokeless powder. With black powder that predates 1900, about the only thing that was consistent was granule size, not density. It's still very similar. Let me give you an example. I recently "weighed" black powder with the same designation from three different lots. FFG. I then poured each of the lots into a volume measure, one of those made of brass that telescope to desired volumes.

NONE OF THE THREE filled the measure to the same level. Even when I tapped them to settle the powder. I couldn't even compact them to the same level. When I shot the charges out of my Lyman 50 cal Plains rifle, which is close to 45 years old, there wasn't any noticeable difference in accuracy or point of impact that couldn't be attributed to my old eyes or hold. I did shoot from bags on a concrete bench, over open iron sights. I didn't bother to try the Magnetospeed.

One thing about modern smokeless powder is that its densities are much more consistent. The difference is in the burn rates, which are controlled by the exterior coatings for the most part. One noticeable difference is granule shape, which can even vary with the same designated powder from lot to lot. This will cause a few discrepancies when changing lots.

Once in a very blue moon, volume type powder measures will deliver excellent accuracy. They are also designed to give a specific volume with a specific powder from a specific lot, for a specific shape/weight bullet. The slight variance between lots won't cause any issues with safety. However, even using the same volume from the same lot can and will give significant velocity variation. WHY??

Because of the air spaces between the granules the weight of powder in each scoop is DIFFERENT. The difference will cause all sorts of accuracy issues.

Remember, these measures weren't intended to give sub minute of angle accuracy. They were initially intended for the LEE LOADER kits to my knowledge and they were intended to produce ammunition that was not only safe in all of the rifles on the market chambered in a certain cartridge with one bullet weight but also to produce what was considered to be acceptable hunting accuracy back in the fifties. 3-5 moa at 100 yards. They were also intended for folks on limited budgets and in reality produced ammo that was close to being as good and sometimes better than the commercial offerings available at the time. The ammo those simple LEE LOADERS produce today is still quite good and relatively cheap when comparing the price of components to that of factory loaded ammo.

There are ways to make your loads more consistent. One method is to tap the measure to pack the powder more densely. This isn't suggested in the instructions but it works. Then, pour a bit of powder on top of this and load that into your cases. It won't be perfect but it will usually be give or take a tenth of a grain in difference. Very close.

Now, for those of you that are more ambitious and experimental, pick up a complete set of measures. For each measure scoop up some powder, tap it down and top it up. Now weigh it and record it where you won't lose it. Do this with each scoop, with each different powder you plan to use.

These tables can be very handy when you want to cut down on time and equipment. If you can't afford a scale, borrow one and give a copy of your findings to whom you borrow it from. DON'T FORGET TO RETURN THE SCALE PROMPTLY.

There are many loads that can be varied with this method. You can also increase charge weights just by going to another ready made scoop by a few tenths of a grain.

I make up my own scoops from a cut down cartridge case. I found a bunch of 45-70 cases with split necks, that I cut down to give me a volume that is very close to the exact weight I want, for a specific load. Sharpie markers keep all the info on the case.

Now, just for full disclosure. I'm a bit anal about accuracy. I haven't competed for close to 20 years now. That's when I learned the value of scoop measures. Yes, I had and still have match quality powder throw units, adjustable to 2/10 of a grain. For the cartridges I was shooting, even in competition, I couldn't discern any noticeable difference in accuracy. NOW, that is with medium capacity cases and larger. Small capacity cases are a whole different story. I found it was quicker and handier just to carry the appropriate scoop and POUR the powder into it with a funnel Until it overflowed. This produced very accurate ammunition in combination with match primers and hand swaged bullets.

I seldom use the scoops for anything more than just a quick starting point. I generally weigh every charge I shoot our of a rifle. Not so for handgun ammo. I just load whatever the throw drops into the case. I weigh every tenth charge to make sure they stay in the ballpark.
 
Thanks for the explanation Bearhunter, that all makes sense. I think a lot of fellas overly dwell on weights to an extreme degree. Thats partly because we now have scales that are capable of measuring to a high degree of accuracy. Whereas that did not exist years ago.
Ive often thought about the scoops and how they worked with the different powders available that could be used in the makeup of a cartridge.
 
Powder scoops really aren't that much different than a powder throw. They can be incredibly consistent when they are used properly. More often than not the people using them DON'T know how to use them.

The idea predates smokeless powder. When you look at black powder load manuals, one of the things they mention is volume, rather than weight is important. Not so with black powder which is usually more precise with burn rates. We all know burn rates can and do differ from lot to lot with smokeless powder. With black powder that predates 1900, about the only thing that was consistent was granule size, not density. It's still very similar. Let me give you an example. I recently "weighed" black powder with the same designation from three different lots. FFG. I then poured each of the lots into a volume measure, one of those made of brass that telescope to desired volumes.

NONE OF THE THREE filled the measure to the same level. Even when I tapped them to settle the powder. I couldn't even compact them to the same level. When I shot the charges out of my Lyman 50 cal Plains rifle, which is close to 45 years old, there wasn't any noticeable difference in accuracy or point of impact that couldn't be attributed to my old eyes or hold. I did shoot from bags on a concrete bench, over open iron sights. I didn't bother to try the Magnetospeed.

One thing about modern smokeless powder is that its densities are much more consistent. The difference is in the burn rates, which are controlled by the exterior coatings for the most part. One noticeable difference is granule shape, which can even vary with the same designated powder from lot to lot. This will cause a few discrepancies when changing lots.

Once in a very blue moon, volume type powder measures will deliver excellent accuracy. They are also designed to give a specific volume with a specific powder from a specific lot, for a specific shape/weight bullet. The slight variance between lots won't cause any issues with safety. However, even using the same volume from the same lot can and will give significant velocity variation. WHY??

Because of the air spaces between the granules the weight of powder in each scoop is DIFFERENT. The difference will cause all sorts of accuracy issues.

Remember, these measures weren't intended to give sub minute of angle accuracy. They were initially intended for the LEE LOADER kits to my knowledge and they were intended to produce ammunition that was not only safe in all of the rifles on the market chambered in a certain cartridge with one bullet weight but also to produce what was considered to be acceptable hunting accuracy back in the fifties. 3-5 moa at 100 yards. They were also intended for folks on limited budgets and in reality produced ammo that was close to being as good and sometimes better than the commercial offerings available at the time. The ammo those simple LEE LOADERS produce today is still quite good and relatively cheap when comparing the price of components to that of factory loaded ammo.

There are ways to make your loads more consistent. One method is to tap the measure to pack the powder more densely. This isn't suggested in the instructions but it works. Then, pour a bit of powder on top of this and load that into your cases. It won't be perfect but it will usually be give or take a tenth of a grain in difference. Very close.

Now, for those of you that are more ambitious and experimental, pick up a complete set of measures. For each measure scoop up some powder, tap it down and top it up. Now weigh it and record it where you won't lose it. Do this with each scoop, with each different powder you plan to use.

These tables can be very handy when you want to cut down on time and equipment. If you can't afford a scale, borrow one and give a copy of your findings to whom you borrow it from. DON'T FORGET TO RETURN THE SCALE PROMPTLY.

There are many loads that can be varied with this method. You can also increase charge weights just by going to another ready made scoop by a few tenths of a grain.

I make up my own scoops from a cut down cartridge case. I found a bunch of 45-70 cases with split necks, that I cut down to give me a volume that is very close to the exact weight I want, for a specific load. Sharpie markers keep all the info on the case.

Now, just for full disclosure. I'm a bit anal about accuracy. I haven't competed for close to 20 years now. That's when I learned the value of scoop measures. Yes, I had and still have match quality powder throw units, adjustable to 2/10 of a grain. For the cartridges I was shooting, even in competition, I couldn't discern any noticeable difference in accuracy. NOW, that is with medium capacity cases and larger. Small capacity cases are a whole different story. I found it was quicker and handier just to carry the appropriate scoop and POUR the powder into it with a funnel Until it overflowed. This produced very accurate ammunition in combination with match primers and hand swaged bullets.

I seldom use the scoops for anything more than just a quick starting point. I generally weigh every charge I shoot our of a rifle. Not so for handgun ammo. I just load whatever the throw drops into the case. I weigh every tenth charge to make sure they stay in the ballpark.

Thank you very much for the informed response Bearhunter. Wow. It's plain English and easy to understand for a person like myself. The time to compose and the wisdom is appreciated by myself at least, if no one else here.

It's late and I am too tired to write an intelligent response... I will respond in full with what I've applied tonight with 20 testing rounds in a day or so...

- The portions regarding smokeless powder vs. black powder explains a lot regarding volumetric measurement. I learned something.
- in bold are things I wanted to highlight as things I've taken note on or am applying
- I cut my teeth on LEE Loaders...if there was one in 7-08 I would get one just to prove a point. That's not bs either. ;)
- I've made progress tonight regarding consistency in weights on the scale using the "scoop" and I'll share them when I can. I've had a few evenings to work through some stuff.

Best Regards bearhunter
Ron
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the explanation Bearhunter, that all makes sense. I think a lot of fellas overly dwell on weights to an extreme degree. Thats partly because we now have scales that are capable of measuring to a high degree of accuracy. Whereas that did not exist years ago.
Ive often thought about the scoops and how they worked with the different powders available that could be used in the makeup of a cartridge.

I'm too curious to set aside now. It's of note that you have some interest. :)

Regards
Ronr
 
Back
Top Bottom