Updated: Incorporating Tactical Rifle shooters into F-Class Matches

I will get back to you on that, I know that the Nato 308 is not going to be replaced in CF. Aircraft window penetration by major U.S.federal law enforcement "FBI" use 65X284. I know that several sheriff dept use 260 Remington. Google it up.

It won't be replaced in the GPMG,however most of the C3's (.308)are being used as training rifles now in the CF.Slowly that equipment will be phased out in favour of the C14 .338L.
Having shot a few aircraft and skytrain windsheilds myself I can't think of a reason to use 6.5x.284.Its just not a big enough round for consitant penetration with enough energy left over to do the buisness.
 
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You are absolutely correct, F-Open is a "kit race" (arms race), etc. What is making F-T/R (which should be virtually identical to ICFRA's F-Restricted) so popular is that it isn't for the most part an arms race. I have little interest in a game where top competitors buy 10 6.5x284 barrels at a time, test to find the best 5, and throw them away in any case after 900-1000 rounds. The thing I like about F-T/R is knowing that all of my other competitors are running the same "unmodified" .308 round that I am (with whatever wiggle room is available there for load tweaking). ...Darrell

There is nothing stopping a F-Res guy from buying 10 barrels and picking the best.
The 308 can group as good at 100 yards as a 6.5x284.
F-Res here allows a ski-pod which is a great improvement over the bi-pod and about equal to the front rest.

My point is that, IMO, there is not that much difference between F-Open and F-Res. The proposed F-Tac would have a significant difference to encourage more shooters and easier for new shooters to join. My other point would be many guys that shoot open dedicate more time into their equipment and ammo to get better groups, this often leads some people to believe its all in the cartridge, not the shooter and the gear. If I had a 30 cal blank I'd shoot F-Res this year.

Would love to have you guys out here on the east coast.

Regards,
Rob,
Open Savage shooter
F-Tac rifle is a bone stock Savage Choate
 
There is nothing stopping a F-Res guy from buying 10 barrels and picking the best.
The 308 can group as good at 100 yards as a 6.5x284.
F-Res here allows a ski-pod which is a great improvement over the bi-pod and about equal to the front rest.

My point is that, IMO, there is not that much difference between F-Open and F-Res. The proposed F-Tac would have a significant difference to encourage more shooters and easier for new shooters to join. My other point would be many guys that shoot open dedicate more time into their equipment and ammo to get better groups, this often leads some people to believe its all in the cartridge, not the shooter and the gear. If I had a 30 cal blank I'd shoot F-Res this year.

Would love to have you guys out here on the east coast.

Regards,
Rob,
Open Savage shooter
F-Tac rifle is a bone stock Savage Choate

True, there is nothing stopping an F-R shooter (or an "F-Tac" shooter) from buying barrels by the gross as some of the F-O shooters do (not a large percentage, mind you, but definitely present). But knowing the great majority of the top F-T/R shooters down here, I can confidently say that very few if any are actually doing so. Most of the .308 shooters here put their time into load development, tinkering with seating depths, powder charges, and different projectiles.

The F-T/R guys I know put in easily as much time developing loads as do the F-O shooters, perhaps more so as their barrels will last 4 times longer. Even out to 300 yards, there is virtually no difference in accuracy between the 6.5x284 and a good .308 load. Most of the guys I shoot with on a regular basis have pulled off a "clean-clean" (all shots in the "X" ring) at 300 yards on the new US F-Class targets (I think 36mm "X" ring vs. the ICFRA 35mm "V" bull). The 6.5x284 really starts to shine out at 800 yards and beyond, where the crazy-high BC starts to take wind drift out of the equation. I really get a kick out of some of the newer F-O shooters looking down their snoots at the F-T/R Class, as if they are some inferior class of shooter due to their (sometimes) lower scores. What any of the .308 classes is teaching is better wind reading. Perfect case and point, the US Team Coach, Gary Rasmussen put on a demonstration at this years Canadian-American Matches by beating ALL of the F-Open shooters in the grand aggregate of a 5 day 1000 yard match with his "lowly" .308. It was impressive to watch!

I would debate the equivalence of a "ski-pod" to a bench rest. I know that a lot of the guys down here like them, but until last October, I ran exclusively the same GG&G "tactical" 11.5 oz. bipod that I run in Tactical matches in all of the F-Class matches I competed in (including the 2007 Fullbore National Championships which I won). Of course, the GG&G is much less prone to the "Harris Hop", as it has no rubber, bouncy feet, or springs attached.

Darrell

BTW, whereabouts back East do you compete? We will be back on the US East Coast (Camp Butner, North Carolina) in October for the US National Championships.
 
Even out to 300 yards, there is virtually no difference in accuracy between the 6.5x284 and a good .308 load. Most of the guys I shoot with on a regular basis have pulled off a "clean-clean" (all shots in the "X" ring) at 300 yards on the new US F-Class targets (I think 36mm "X" ring vs. the ICFRA 35mm "V" bull). The 6.5x284 really starts to shine out at 800 yards and beyond, where the crazy-high BC starts to take wind drift out of the equation.
Exactly what I've been trying to convey, it takes some serious yardage for the non-308 to gain an advantage and its maxed out at 25% drift. Since both must adjust for wind, the shooter's wind reading error percentage is what is effected, NOT the total drift. The advantage is 25% of the shooters error, which isn't very much when a good shooter is paying attention.

I hail from PEI and shoot 300, 500 and 600 on weekends. The folks from NS and NB are simply a pleasure to shoot with. NS has a beautiful 800M range called Bull Meadows and the NB folks have Gagetown which I believe has 1000 yards available. Both NS and NB have other ranges but I'm not familiar with them. Sadly I haven't made it to the Gagetown 1000 yard range.

Cheers,
Rob
 
It won't be replaced in the GPMG,however most of the C3's (.308)are being used as training rifles now in the CF.Slowly that equipment will be phased out in favour of the C14 .338L.
Having shot a few aircraft and skytrain windsheilds myself I can't think of a reason to use 6.5x.284.Its just not a big enough round for consitant penetration with enough energy left over to do the buisness.

It had to do with the length of the projectile and reflection after penetration, your right thought energy on the target is better with the 30 cal. I know from a friend in the corp (us marines) that they have been doing a study of a improved version of the 260 for a couple of years and the results have been sub .25 moa. rifle.
 
Generally (not always), there are two separate sets of awards for the two classes here; an F-Open match winner, and an F-T/R match winner. From experience shooting in Canada, I know that is not necessarily the case up there.

In previous years, there was only one main "F-Class" prize pool for the Canadian Championships match. In practice this meant that F/F shooters were essentially out of the running.

But, starting this year each division of F-Class will be treated fully equally:

http://dcraprogramme.########.com/2009/02/2009-canadian-championships-f-class.html
Fourthly, F/Farquharson and F/Restricted will now be fully and equally recognized in all the prize lists. Provided that there are at least three shooters, the first place F/Farquaharson and the first place F/Restrcited shooter will receive the same award (gold medallion, etc) as the first place F/Open shooter.

Now it is up to F/Farq and/or F/Restricted shooters to show up in decent numbers, and compete for their prizes.
 
My point is that, IMO, there is not that much difference between F-Open and F-Res.

This I do have to disagree with Rob - the ballistics of of the F-R vs F-O are very different, where F-O is running about half the wind of F-R.

I enjoy the idea of F-R to keep things simple for starting shooters not wanting to venture into the realm of 6mm vs 6.5 or 7mm etc., wher you see shooters who typically change barrels yearly.

However, while it levels the playing field ballistically, it opens up another venue in reloading now that the 155gr cap has been largely removed. I'll stay with .308W.

See you next week Darrell!

Bill
 
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