Updated: Incorporating Tactical Rifle shooters into F-Class Matches

[Banished]

Hello Aubrey,

First off we have been discussing this NEW Sub Class since the end of the 2008 TAC MATCH, and details were discussed at the AGM in November. -we have on several occasions been told we would work out the details last time was a couple weeks before our TAC shoot in fact the FClass Champs were brought up and a new sub classs was announced at the Service rifle competition by the service rifle/TR Director there is nothing last minute about this ,again . PLEASE do not ASSUME this is a last minute request or something that we just decided to pursue on a whim, Targets have already been discussed scoring has been discussed and as far as fairness is concerned PLEASE give me a break local guys want to shoot and participate - out of town cops and firemen(nothing against police or firefighters) that we will never see again get priority PLEASE don't start with the Fairness Guilt trip B.S .Also Are you telling me all 96 positions are full Aubrey ?

Regards

Ed

Hi Ed

Chill out old friend. I'm only pointing out the reality of the situation. This is the last minute and it hasn't been done so prepare for next year starting now and get a firm agreement in place. The point is did you have a firm commitment in writing or not? If this was not done you still have some work to do.

Please don't confuse me with someone who wants to limit participation. In the late 70's when the BCRA "Police Sniper" shoot was limited to police only I lobbied long and hard to include the military and civilian shooters. It all takes time and hard work but when success is achieved the frustrations then seem worth it. That discipline grew from 15 competitors in 1979 to selling out at 96 in the late 80's and I'm proud to have been a part of it.

Sending you on a guilt trip was not intended - your thin skin is showing. The suggestion that you think about making space for F-Class was legitimate and should be considered if you have the room.

Keep up the pressure but try not to dump on those trying to help.

Regards

Aubrey

 

[Skullboy]

The suggestion that you think about making space for F-Class was legitimate and should be considered if you have the room.

Regards

Aubrey

There is an Open Class for those who do not make the Tac Class Rifle requirements at our match........This was put in place so as not to exclude F-Class Shooters.........

 

[PEI ROB]

The F-Tac Class is a good idea IMO and to go further than that, F-Res should be dropped. With the ski-pod equalizer, the only other difference between F-Open and F-Res is caliber and the grouping ability difference is grossly exaggerated. Good shooters greatly improve their skill level and equipment as years go by. As new rigs are built, seemingly "majic" calibers are used by these well skilled shooters and the urban legend is born, "a 308 will never stand a chance against a 6.5X284." Simply not so, perhaps the rig itself, the carefully handcrafted ammo and the shooter have something to do with it. Between the new Sierra 155 at a BC of .504 and the Berger 140 6.5mm at .612 there is a 25% wind drift difference, both leave the barrel at around 3000 fps. This means the 308 shooter's wind reading error of a 1/4 min of what the wind is really doing translates into a 1/16 of a MOA worse that if a 6.5X284 was used, at 1000 yards that is approx 1.6". If both read the wind properly, there is NO difference. This is where the shooter skill and equipment decide if 1/16 of a moa is worth thousands of dollars, to an Open type of shooter its definately worth it.

Its apples to apples, you simply can't compare [read compete against] ANY well tuned rig and good shooter with the average rifle shot by an average shooter. Don't blame it on the caliber like F-Res does. F-Tac presents enough of an advantage difference to warrant a separate class. The Hun target can be used for a Tactical match if desired and the DCRA target can be used for DCRA shoots, same rifle.

 

[Banished]

There is an Open Class for those who do not make the Tac Class Rifle requirements at our match........This was put in place so as not to exclude F-Class Shooters.........

But we can't shoot at F-Class (ICFRA) targets and I understand the reasons for that.

Regards

Aubrey

 

[Banished]

The F-Tac Class is a good idea IMO and to go further than that, F-Res should be dropped. With the ski-pod equalizer, the only other difference between F-Open and F-Res is caliber and the grouping ability difference is grossly exaggerated. Good shooters greatly improve their skill level and equipment as years go by. As new rigs are built, seemingly "majic" calibers are used by these well skilled shooters and the urban legend is born, "a 308 will never stand a chance against a 6.5X284." Simply not so, perhaps the rig itself, the carefully handcrafted ammo and the shooter have something to do with it. Between the new Sierra 155 at a BC of .504 and the Berger 140 6.5mm at .612 there is a 25% wind drift difference, both leave the barrel at around 3000 fps. This means the 308 shooter's wind reading error of a 1/4 min of what the wind is really doing translates into a 1/16 of a MOA worse that if a 6.5X284 was used, at 1000 yards that is approx 1.6". If both read the wind properly, there is NO difference. This is where the shooter skill and equipment decide if 1/16 of a moa is worth thousands of dollars, to an Open type of shooter its definately worth it.

Its apples to apples, you simply can't compare [read compete against] ANY well tuned rig and good shooter with the average rifle shot by an average shooter. Don't blame it on the caliber like F-Res does. F-Tac presents enough of an advantage difference to warrant a separate class. The Hun target can be used for a Tactical match if desired and the DCRA target can be used for DCRA shoots, same rifle.

A performance based classification system looks after all of the above.

Regards

Aubrey

 

[Longshot]

“Greenshot” – the shooter qualifies in this category only for his/her 1st official competition and then moves on to the next level for the next competition.

“Sharpshooter” – competitor remains in this Class until they either win an official competition in this class or have posted an average score of 90% or better in the previous year - at which time they move up one class.

“Expert” – competitor remains in this Class until they either win two official competitions in this class or have posted an average score of 95% or better in the previous year – at which time they move up one class.

“Master” –competitor has posted an average score of 95% or better in the previous year.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how this system will eliminate the arms race.For example,top shooters shooting 6.5 x .284 with handloads will be able to shoot higher scores than top shooters shooting a .308 using federal gold medal 168's.So the 6.5 shooter places higher putting him in the master class and the .308 guy only gets sharpshooter?I can see where all the match winners will come from and it ain't going to be any other class than master.Class system works in service rifle BECAUSE we are all using basically the same guns with the same caliber of ammo and even then it is only a classification of skill.

 

[Marksmen]

I'm sorry but I fail to see how this system will eliminate the arms race.For example,top shooters shooting 6.5 x .284 with handloads will be able to shoot higher scores than top shooters shooting a .308 using federal gold medal 168's.So the 6.5 shooter places higher putting him in the master class and the .308 guy only gets sharpshooter?I can see where all the match winners will come from and it ain't going to be any other class than master.Class system works in service rifle BECAUSE we are all using basically the same guns with the same caliber of ammo and even then it is only a classification of skill.

Point, There are police and military units using 6.5x284 260rem 338 lapua etc. as well. why is everyone stuck on the 308, I is getting replaced everyday. everyone that shoot a lot competition hand loads just for cost savings.

 

[Marksmen]

Brent,
I like the idea of more match's BUT
When or where do you think we can schedule extra match's????? The B.C.R.A. has enough trouble getting the range for its existing schedule never mind extra event days added to the range schedule . We do intend to shoot beside the F class and tr shooters and we do intend to use our own targets and have dedicated target frames this was and has already been established and voted on at the last AGM in so far as TAC shooters Being allowed to practice with TAC targets at B.C.R.A Practice sessions ( I don't see how anything would change in a F Class match) Now that being said I don't think a TAC style match could be shot along side a regular F Class TR match without a coordinating head ache or one side or the other being inconvenienced or disrupted in some way -No movers = static targets= F Class -TAC I am sure some of the Veteran shooters would have a Puppy if the target beside them went up and down with 3 second exposures While spotters are communicating with there shooters . ...... I don't foresee any problem following the range tempo or having any problem following any safety rules, there are plenty of experienced shooters that don't mind looking after any NEW people and showing them the ropes. Some of us plan on shooting regular F Class as well and have done so in the past with out any difficulties , safety issues or trouble with "timing" and have done so with notable success so I doubt there would be any interruptions of the shooting program

Regards
Ed

Ed this doesn't have to be at the vokes range to be a match, Mission and kamloops have 300ydrs with target pits. A challenging tac match definitely be put on. When I was the rifle chair at Mission I was told not to put on a Tactical match as it would take away from the BCRA match in the spring, go figure.

To bad about the veteran shooters having a puppy, but we are a point of survival for shooting in this country. The veteran shooting styles have failed to attract replacement shooters in the sport. If F-Class or Tactical shooting brings out the shooters thats what we have to cater to.

 

[Savage]

Point, There are police and military units using 6.5x284 260rem 338 lapua etc. as well. why is everyone stuck on the 308, I is getting replaced everyday. everyone that shoot a lot competition hand loads just for cost savings.

Perhaps you could tell me which NATO Armies and Police depts are using the 6.5x284,or the 260 Rem as for there primary sniper rifles .The 338 LM it is generally accepted as a medium/intermediate range platform where as the 308 is the medium range platform

 

[ED BEGG]

Hi Ed

Chill out old friend. I'm only pointing out the reality of the situation. This is the last minute and it hasn't been done so prepare for next year starting now and get a firm agreement in place. The point is did you have a firm commitment in writing or not? If this was not done you still have some work to do.

Please don't confuse me with someone who wants to limit participation. In the late 70's when the BCRA "Police Sniper" shoot was limited to police only I lobbied long and hard to include the military and civilian shooters. It all takes time and hard work but when success is achieved the frustrations then seem worth it. That discipline grew from 15 competitors in 1979 to selling out at 96 in the late 80's and I'm proud to have been a part of it.

Sending you on a guilt trip was not intended - your thin skin is showing. The suggestion that you think about making space for F-Class was legitimate and should be considered if you have the room.

Keep up the pressure but try not to dump on those trying to help.

Regards

Aubrey

Aubrey,

What you seem to ignore is that there is nothing last minute about this this has been discussed and until last night I find out on a INTERNET forum that we wont be able to participate NICE you ask me to be fair ,what was fair about that ? Please look within and tell me your "Skin wouldn't be showing" do I have it writing PLEASE now you are sounding like honest ray from L.A. show me where anything is in writing about any match However I can tell you of the conversations I had with different people in positions of authority and I can show you the interest generated at the AGM and the Vote made at the AGM that is in writing ,it is quite obvious that a new motion needs to be floored at the AGM and you can be sure I will be taking the time between now and the AGM to develop and refine several motions to avoid this from happening again. Aubrey, do not think for a second that I do not appreciate your previous contributions to the B.C.R.A. or that in any way I am upset with you for voicing your opinions However I am disappointed that I had to find out on the INTERNET about "NOT FEELING THE LOVE" I do not think I can add any more to this discussion as it is obvious minds have been made up. I will simply say in closing that there is an obvious interest in this class
and those folks that are interested need to Show up to the AGM and voice there opinions and vote for there interests Aubrey , Best of luck to you in the shoot ,Brent best of luck to you as well I hope B.C shows the rest of our guests / visitors how it gets done

Regards
Ed

 

[Longshot]

The main problem with .338L was that up until last year Volkes was not templated for it,therefore it could not be used.Can .338L be used in F-Class matches?I know of NO militaries that use either .260 or 6.5x.284.As for police departments although its possible,the lack of factory loaded match/tactical ammo makes it highly doubtfull.

 

[Slavex]

as Longshot mentioned already a class system wouldn't work, in my opinion. it's exactly the same as IPSC, you have different guns designed to meet specific criteria, competing against all the other guns? doesn't work. Divisions, with classes within them DOES work though, again following the IPSC model (sorry Longshot). If we ended up shooting on the same targets as the F-Class guys, I'd have no problems, and that's probably the way to start this and gauge interest. I don't need any of the targets we currently use, I'd just like to have my performance based on similar gear being shot. That will give me an understanding of where I am skills wise, compared to other people within the sport I shoot. Sure it'll be cool to look at scores in the other divisions as well, like I already in IPSC and see how many (if any) people in the other Divisions, I beat, or where I stand against them.
So to reiterate, I don't think a Class system would be beneficial at all, whereas the Division system already in place, with us added as Tac Rifle div, would work just fine. Don't change the targets right off the bat, that makes scoring easier and all that. If some peoples crosshairs are too thick, well #### happens.

 

[scaxeman]

I'll throw my .02 in here.

We have an F-Class classification system down here in the States. It is based on percentages just as has been described above (the same percentages for either Class). For the most part, shooters tend to pick a class and stay there, either F-Open or F-T/R (your F-Restricted). There is no particular heartburn with the fact that there are a good number of F-Open Masters, and exactly 2 F-T/R Masters in the whole of the US. Generally, the top level of shooter is interested in merely what others in their class are doing (apples to apples).

As far as splintering F-Class into yet more pieces, at what point do you stop? When you have a "Savage action, 28" Kreiger barreled, McMillan stocked" Class? It is one thing to split F-Open and F-T/R, the relative ballistic efficiencies of the common F-Open calibers and the .308 make this a common sense step. In my opinion, further splitting F-T/R into F-Restricted, F-Farky, F-Tactical, and F-Factory Classes is going down the wrong road. Down here, the number of competitors in F-Class in general, and F-T/R specifically has been soaring. We are probably (guessing) the fastest growing Class of shooting. F-T/R Class in particular has nearly doubled the number of competitors it has fielded for the US National Championships for each of the last 4 years, and shows signs of doing so again this year (60-70 F-T/R shooters) at Nationals in North Carolina.

Generally (not always), there are two separate sets of awards for the two classes here; an F-Open match winner, and an F-T/R match winner. From experience shooting in Canada, I know that is not necessarily the case up there. Some venues down here (the Spirit of America Matches) have gone so far as to have a 3rd chair constructed, One each for the Grand Aggregate winners for the sling and irons shooters, F-Open, and F-T/R. They really are separate competitions.

Why do the Tac Rifle shooters not come out to the F-Class matches and simply register as F-T/R (F-Restricted), and use the little 1/2 minute ICFRA target? Especially out to 600 meters, the differences between the classes, even the differences between F-Open and F-T/R, are not particularly pronounced. The differences in performance between a 24" barreled Tac rifle and a 30" barreled F-T/R rig will be negligible. This will be especially true if the Tac rifle shooter doesn't insist on loading from the magazine (battering their rounds around in the chamber before firing). Yes there are some small advantages to having a solid bottom, single shot receiver instead of a Tac rifle receiver with a magazine well, but honestly, the main difference comes down to shooter skill/reloading skill, especially from 600 meters and in.

Furthermore, if the Tac rifle shooters go with the newer "performance" 155 and 155.5 grain projectiles, they will get an additional boost over running the heavier, slower .308 projectiles. While there are still a number of shooters running .308 "heavies" (185, 190, 200 grain, etc.) with good success, most of the wins at 1000 yards and beyond have been coming from the 155. The overall 1000 yard (F-T/R) winner at last year's US Nationals was running 155's, the US 1200 yard Champion was using 155.5's.

I strongly feel that the success of F-T/R in the States is due to the fact that we have tended to collect the various fragments of .308 shooters; Tactical, F-T/R, Hunters, and Varminters, instead of splitting and re-splitting into smaller fragments. On the current US National Team, fully half of my guys have run a .308 Sniper system either in a Military or LE setting (Tac shooters), several others came from the Palma or Benchrest game, and others are hunters that decided that competition was intriguing. The point is, their backgrounds are quite varied, and I think that we are stronger because of it.

Best Regards to All,

Darrell

 

[Savage]

We have several shooters that are F Class shooters that like the challenge that Tac Rifle matches give them they are finding that it is more fun and relaxing than F Class we have two classes standard .223 /.308 and 338LM, Trigger 2.5lbs ,combined weight 17 lbs max and Open all other calibers ,triggers under 2.5 allowed, combined weight in excess of 17 lbs. Every one enjoys themselves and has fun that is what it is all about
The courses of fire our group has feature a 20 round pistol match at the beginning which requires little or no prep time to set up and is especially set up challenge the shooter

 

[Banished]

I'm sorry but I fail to see how this system will eliminate the arms race.For example,top shooters shooting 6.5 x .284 with handloads will be able to shoot higher scores than top shooters shooting a .308 using federal gold medal 168's.So the 6.5 shooter places higher putting him in the master class and the .308 guy only gets sharpshooter?I can see where all the match winners will come from and it ain't going to be any other class than master.Class system works in service rifle BECAUSE we are all using basically the same guns with the same caliber of ammo and even then it is only a classification of skill.

I don't want to end the arms race. I wish to encourage it but only for those with the interest, time and resources.

I suggest that each category has it's own award schedule which means if we have the three classes such as "Sharpshooter", "Expert" and "Master" there would be three match winners. Any and all awards should be distributed evenly among the three classes. The "Greenshot" new shooter category should be recognized at local and regional competitions but would probably be excluded from Provincial and National events.

Regards

Aubrey

 

[Obtunded]

Darrell, your comments are interesting and I appreciate your perspective. I hope you and the rest of Team Savage are coming up to the BC Provincials again this year.

In BC (and remember that this is strictly a BC initiative at its highest level thus far) we officially recognize just F-Open and F-Restricted. It was decided that in the interest of avoiding dilution, that we avoid a third class (F/TR). Yet... here I am essentially advocating a third class... whoda thunkit.

Unlike the US, where shooting and firearms ownership are fundamental rights and part of culture, we struggle against many obstacles from legislative ones to many pedantic and obtuse rules regarding where and what you can shoot. This means that involvement in competitive shooting and even shooting - period - requires pathways to allow neophyte new shooters somewhere to start. Most haven't a clue where to start and those that try F-Class are overwhelmed by the weird collection of crap we shoot with that one cannot find on the shelf at your local gun store. F-Open is a highly specialized sport. It is intimidating. We need another option for entering F-Class that closer fits what a typical new/young shooting enthusiast is likely to have sitting in his gun cabinet. We also need to give them a target where they stand a better chance of being successful.

Tac Rifle is a popular sport and it has appeal on a level that exceeds just the accuracy of the firearm and precision shooting skill. The tools and the targets are frankly far cooler, plus anyone can buy a good quality off-the-shelf tactical style rifle and be competitive. With the exception of Savage F rifles, nobody comes close to offering a match-capable rifle that shoots .4MOA with which one could expect to be successful in an F-Open, or even an F-TR match.(Yes, ICFRA short range targets are a scant 35mm or just over 1 inch).

I have advocated a factory/sporter class to allow new shooters a chance to be competitive, but I think the F-Tactical would be the best of both worlds, giving tactical shooters two venues in which to practice their sport with one piece of equipment, and offering the most likely way for a new shooter to fit in with what he likely owns already.

F-Open is a kit race. Unless you have a custom 6BR or a rifle similar to it, you stand almost no chance of being successful. Furthermore, Unless you know someone that shoots F-O, you likely haven't got a clue where to buy your brass, your bullets, your barrels, your scopes, your bipods, rests and other assorted crap that forms the ensemble of the well-dressed f-classer in Canada.

Add to that the fact that the first time you piss-off a grumpy old miserable TR shooter, he'll bark a you and likely make you feel like you should have spent your entry fee on something else.

Yes, most Tactical shooters could enter an F-Restricted match and conform completely with the equipment rules (If they use 308 or 223), but could the shooter with a factory Savage 10FP seriously hope to score better on a 35mm target than a fellow shooting a custom 308 with a custom barrel?

Serious tac shooters with the right equipment could clean up in all f-classes (I hope I am not making this sound like Tac rifles are inherently less accurate or that the shooters are less capble... Darrell himself is a good example that this is not the case), but this class would at least create an incentive to work on ultra-precision oriented skills and equipment. within the parameters of the equipment that a tac rifle shooter already owns.

Does this make sense?

 

[Blackcloud]

Perhaps you could tell me which NATO Armies and Police depts are using the 6.5x284,or the 260 Rem as for there primary sniper rifles .The 338 LM it is generally accepted as a medium/intermediate range platform where as the 308 is the medium range platform

I'd be rather curious as well. .223, .308, and .338LM, at least in Canada

 

[Ice-Pick]

Are all the military ranges templated to hold .338LM ??

M.

 

[Marksmen]

Perhaps you could tell me which NATO Armies and Police depts are using the 6.5x284,or the 260 Rem as for there primary sniper rifles .The 338 LM it is generally accepted as a medium/intermediate range platform where as the 308 is the medium range platform

I will get back to you on that, I know that the Nato 308 is not going to be replaced in CF. Aircraft window penetration by major U.S.federal law enforcement "FBI" use 65X284. I know that several sheriff dept use 260 Remington. Google it up.

 

[scaxeman]

Darrell, your comments are interesting and I appreciate your perspective. I hope you and the rest of Team Savage are coming up to the BC Provincials again this year.

Tac Rifle is a popular sport and it has appeal on a level that exceeds just the accuracy of the firearm and precision shooting skill. The tools and the targets are frankly far cooler, plus anyone can buy a good quality off-the-shelf tactical style rifle and be competitive. With the exception of Savage F rifles, nobody comes close to offering a match-capable rifle that shoots .4MOA with which one could expect to be successful in an F-Open, or even an F-TR match.(Yes, ICFRA short range targets are a scant 35mm or just over 1 inch).

We will be in England and Ireland for the World Championships when your Provincials are held this year, which is unfortunate, we really look forward to those matches... next year!

You are absolutely correct, F-Open is a "kit race" (arms race), etc. What is making F-T/R (which should be virtually identical to ICFRA's F-Restricted) so popular is that it isn't for the most part an arms race. I have little interest in a game where top competitors buy 10 6.5x284 barrels at a time, test to find the best 5, and throw them away in any case after 900-1000 rounds. The thing I like about F-T/R is knowing that all of my other competitors are running the same "unmodified" .308 round that I am (with whatever wiggle room is available there for load tweaking). Therefore the best shooter on a given day will win, not the best/most expensive shooting system. In my shameless plug for Savage, I will note that the rifle that I am taking to Bisley for the World Championships is a "box-stock" Savage F-T/R rifle, no modifications whatsoever. No bedding, no custom barrel, no aftermarket trigger... stock. This rifle can be found at dealers down here for ~$940.

In F-Class (F-T/R specifically) with it's small targets (perfect in my opinion for perfecting one's Tac rifle accuracy and technique... instant feedback ), the more important factor is not the equipment. In both F-T/R and Tac rifle (longer ranges, 300 yards and out), it is great to have a rifle that shoots 1/4 min groups all day long, however the guy that is going to win the match is the best wind/condition reader. This is a point that I constantly pound home to the various SWAT/ERT Teams that I help train. The new guys on the Teams are always amazed at how much even a slight breeze will affect the drift on streamlined .308 projectile (Match 168 grain or similar) at even moderate range (600 yards). For learning/reading wind, the smaller the target the better. Would a 10FP shooter be at a bit of a disadvantage to a mod. 12 F-T/R... possibly, a little, but at the end of the day, wind reading is the deciding factor.

Darrell