US Army bans PMAGS

The green machine is nutz for doing this but I do think that it has nothing to do with Magpul products but other polymer magazine's that have failed in the line of duty. Although if this was the case I still can't understand how the old school mag's are still being issued. Just another reason why comon sense and military brass are 2 words that should never be spoken in the same sentance.
:bangHead:
 
thumbshark said:
It's unfortunate that front line war fighters have to die because they are issued sub standard equipment because the brass hats want to spend the extra cash on cocktail parties, hookers, and asshats to fund their future retirement gigs.
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There is nothing sub standard about regular aluminum USGI mags. Do you honestly think that the US government would use a magazine for close to 40 years that didn't work?

Are PMags better? I have no idea. Whether they are or not it doesn't automatically make aluminum mags substandard junk.

People always think that they know better when it comes to equipment. I've seen people use some pretty tricked out rigs that in no way compromised their gear. I've also seen the other side where people think that some $30 made in China red dot is every bit as good as an EoTech, or UTG rails that they think are the equal of KAC. How do you stop that idiot from using Tapco mags? By enforcing the use of issued equipment.

A NATO stock number also doesn't mean squat. PMags have a NATO stock number because the Marines issue them. It doesn't mean that they're approved for use by Army personnel. KAC rails have NATO stock numbers, but I can't get them issued in my unit because they have not been adopted as standard issue by the Canadian military.
 
The idiocy of such a decision is beyond comprehension. I guess someone is not getting a cut. There is no other explanation. You want to fight a war with red tape in it? Just remember Vietnam.
 
Bam_Bam said:
The US military has made some weird decisions lately, often without much reason. A few months ago they banned the Vibram running shoes (the runners with individual toes instead of the traditional shoe open toe) despite a lot of great reviews from servicemen. All because they had an apperance the militry didn't like. Now with the mags.

I wonder if there was a recent death in combat and a non-issue mag malfunctioned and was a contributing factor to the death. Then they issued a blanket ban on anything non issue. That would actually be a typical government thing to do.


Better track record for feeding problems, easier to index, better seating, and generally more reliable... in my experiences anyways. Some don't find much difference between them and normal USGI mags.
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Like issuing Marines SERPA holsters... :D
:ar15:w:h::50cal:
 
Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage


during this battle the taliban were within the camp. No there were no stopages with the pmags, the rifle barrels were so hot that they were bursting. Thats why 8 guys died, also being in the bottom of a remote valley with no support dident help. One of the guys who died was an lt who daddy is a retired general. Im pretty sure the retired general has some pull some where and they had to blame something. the tv show 60 minutes has a really good episode about this battle. i recomend you all watch it. pmags or metal, doesent matter to me as long as it works for the user.
 
Is it me, or is the new "Tan follower" a blatant patent infringement on Magpul's anti-tilt follower??

Just saying'....

Tan:
Magazine-Follower.jpg


Magpul:
2-magpul-gry-followers.jpg
 
Leg said:
People always think that they know better when it comes to equipment. I've seen people use some pretty tricked out rigs that in no way compromised their gear. I've also seen the other side where people think that some $30 made in China red dot is every bit as good as an EoTech, or UTG rails that they think are the equal of KAC. How do you stop that idiot from using Tapco mags? By enforcing the use of issued equipment. .
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That^^^^^^^^
 
US Army bans high performance rifle mags

From Military Times

In Reversal, Army Bans High-Performance Rifle Mags
May 25, 2012
Military.com| by Matthew Cox

The Army has ordered that soldiers may use only government-issued magazines with their M4 carbines, a move that effectively bans one of the most dependable and widely used commercial-made magazines on today’s battlefield.

The past decade of war has spawned a wave of innovation in the commercial soldier weapons and equipment market. As a result, trigger-pullers in the Army, Marines and various service special operations communities now go to war armed with commercially designed kit that’s been tested under the most extreme combat conditions.

Near the top of such advancements is the PMAG polymer M4 magazine, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp. in 2007. Its rugged design has made it as one of the top performers in the small-arms accessory arena, according to combat veterans who credit the PMAG with drastically improving the reliability of the M4.

Despite the success of the PMAG, Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command issued a “safety of use message” in April that placed it, and all other polymer magazines, on an unauthorized list.

The message did not single out PMAGs, but instead authorizes only the use of Army-issued aluminum magazines. The message offers little explanation for the new policy except to state that “Units are only authorized to use the Army-authorized magazines listed in the technical manuals.” Nor does it say what Army units should now do with the millions of dollars’ worth of PMAGs they’ve purchased over the years.

Magpul officials have been reluctant to comment on the issue. Robert Vidrine, vice president of marketing and sales, said the company found out about TACOM’s message only after it was released to the field.

The decision has left combat troops puzzled, since the PMAG has an Army-approved national stock number, which allows units to order them through the Army supply system.

“This just follows a long line of the Army, and military in general, not listening to the troops about equipment and weaponry,” said one Army infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan, who asked not to be identified.

“The PMAG is a great product … lightweight and durable. I have seen numerous special ops teams from all services pass through here, and they all use PMAGs. Also, a large amount of Marine infantry here use PMAGS, including their Force Recon elements.”

TACOM officials said the message was issued because of “numerous reports that Army units are using unauthorized magazines,” TACOM spokesman Eric Emerton said in a written response to questions from Military.com. Emerton added that only “authorized NSNs have ever been included in the technical manuals. Just because an item has an NSN, does not mean the Army is an authorized user.”

This seems to be a complete policy reversal, since PMAGs are standard issue with the Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment and they have been routinely issued to infantry units before war-zone deployments.

Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

Militay.com asked TACOM officials if the Army had discovered any problems with PMAGs that would warrant the ban on their use. TACOM officials would not answer the question and instead passed it off to Program Executive Office Soldier on Thursday evening before the four-day Memorial Day weekend.

TACOM’s message authorizes soldiers to use the Army’s improved magazine, which PEO Soldier developed after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a 2007 reliability test. The “dust test” revealed that 27 percent of the M4’s stoppages were magazine related.

The improved magazine uses a redesigned “follower,” the part that sits on the magazine’s internal spring and feeds the rounds into the M4’s upper receiver. The new tan-colored follower features an extended rear leg and modified bullet protrusion for improved round stacking and orientation. The self-leveling/anti-tilt follower reduces the risk of magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older magazine variants, PEO Soldier officials maintain. Soldiers are also authorized to use Army magazines with the older, green follower until they are all replaced, the message states.

Military.com asked the Army if the improved magazine can outperform the PMAG, but a response wasn’t received by press time.

The same infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan had this to say about the new and improved magazine:

“Like any magazine, they work great when they are brand new and haven’t been drug through the dirt and mud. I haven’t noticed much of a difference between these tan followers and the older green ones. After some time training up for the 'Stan, the same issues started to occur: double feeds, rounds not feeding correctly so on and so on. While it seems to occur about half as often, it’s still not a great solution.

“The magazines still get bent at the opening and are still prone to getting crushed in the middle. I haven’t seen any issues like this with the PMAG due to the polymer casing. I have seen an empty PMAG get run over by a MaxPro [vehicle] and operated flawlessly later that week when we tested it at the range. Last time I saw this happen to a standard issue magazine, it was scrap metal after that.”
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angrysoldier said:
Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage


during this battle the taliban were within the camp. No there were no stopages with the pmags, the rifle barrels were so hot that they were bursting. Thats why 8 guys died, also being in the bottom of a remote valley with no support dident help. One of the guys who died was an lt who daddy is a retired general. Im pretty sure the retired general has some pull some where and they had to blame something. the tv show 60 minutes has a really good episode about this battle. i recomend you all watch it. pmags or metal, doesent matter to me as long as it works for the user.
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Dien Bien Phu: The A-Stan Edition...


Why can't the beancounters and REMFs busily stabbing their fellow warriors in the back while jockeying for position as the war winds down crack a friggin military history book? It boggles the mind...
 
IMO, this is not unusual for the military.

A strong push for everyone to use the same kit is basically standard, and it sounds like they are just going back to that.

And I'd expect that the suppliers of the standard issue mags were creating a ruckus behind the scenes too; no doubt they have contracts they want honored.

The CF is way more anal than the Americans about this stuff BTW, at least when I was in. Being caught using anything not standard issue was chargeable at the time, and guys were being charged with everything from using Norwegian winter sweaters in the field (instead of our crappy CF sweaters), to wearing civilian white tube socks (instead of our thick wool socks in +30 degree heat) for general duties while in batallion. Hopefully things have gotten better for our troops since then...
 
I suspect this has to do less with PMags sucking, and more to do with the market being flooded with increasingly ####ty polymer mags from other sources. The easiest way to ensure everyone is using good mags is to force them to use GI aluminum.

I actually know a lot of heavy users that abandoned the PMag about a year ago and went back to the USGI mags as they found them to be more reliable.
 
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the average US Army soldier suddenly has 2 types of magazines:

1) the USGI magazines for kit inspections, and.....

2) the magazines from whatever manufacturer that he bloody well wants to use for actual battle.

I also suspect that some master sergeants and sergeants major will, how shall I put this, "overlook" :)D) the PMAGS soldiers are carrying during inspections.
 
Power Pill said:
Don't mean to hijack, but what makes the PMAGs better than the regular mags?
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Last paragraph of the article...

“The magazines still get bent at the opening and are still prone to getting crushed in the middle. I haven’t seen any issues like this with the PMAG due to the polymer casing. I have seen an empty PMAG get run over by a MaxPro [vehicle] and operated flawlessly later that week when we tested it at the range. Last time I saw this happen to a standard issue magazine, it was scrap metal after that.”
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It would appear metal doesn't stand up to stress and flex as well as polymer, which does flex and retains its shape by "bouncing" back to its original form.
 
The Canadian Army purchasing system is much much worse in my opinion. OTW troops bought our own chest rigs/ pmags/optics etc. for tours.

At least the US get mostly kit that works. And yes, I have worked with them a lot. That said this is obviously a retarded move for them.
 
fenceline said:
Last paragraph of the article...



It would appear metal doesn't stand up to stress and flex as well as polymer, which does flex and retains its shape by "bouncing" back to its original form.
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Yep. Polymer is pretty amazing stuff, anyone with a glock knows this. Some people are just slow to adopt new ideas that demonstrate advantages that are hard to deny. Sucks to be them.
 
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