I don't have a problem with us being slow to adopt things that are new, but for them to reject a product that seems to work better after combat experience with it seems silly, borderline suicidal.
US Army bans PMAGS
- Thread starter SCDL
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I don't have a problem with us being slow to adopt things that are new, but for them to reject a product that seems to work better after combat experience with it seems silly, borderline suicidal.
My experience has always shown me that time and again most people that are in a place to make a decision are not the ones that will face the consequences but will reap the rewards.
In my opinion the CF is far worse overall than the US military. If anything you will be slandered insulted if you even think of a new idea..... It's almost like a social thing or something, it was like a lot of members just liked the fact we were all the same in every way at the expense of improvement. I guess it's just a mentality on the lower levels and for the higher levels well they get paid off.
In my opinion the CF is far worse overall than the US military. If anything you will be slandered insulted if you even think of a new idea..... It's almost like a social thing or something, it was like a lot of members just liked the fact we were all the same in every way at the expense of improvement. I guess it's just a mentality on the lower levels and for the higher levels well they get paid off.
"TACOM’s message authorizes soldiers to use the Army’s improved magazine, which PEO Soldier developed after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a 2007 reliability test. The “dust test” revealed that 27 percent of the M4’s stoppages were magazine related."
Smoke and mirrors. The Pmags or brand new aluminum magazines won't help the M4 with the other 73% of stoppages. Let me guess at the two front runners: HK 416 and Swiss Arms.
Smoke and mirrors. The Pmags or brand new aluminum magazines won't help the M4 with the other 73% of stoppages. Let me guess at the two front runners: HK 416 and Swiss Arms.
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
The test is an interesting read - you can google it in the entirety (US DoD SARP) and it was really not a fair test.
They randomly selected their sample M4's from US ARMY inventory - all were well used 3-round burst carbines - and compared them against the trials submission rifles from the other manufacturers. colt registered objections over this which were unheeded. Colt was not allowed to submit even an unused carbine like the other entrants, let alone a tuned trials rifle.
Additionally, Colt objected that the less-reliable 3-round bust model (which the ARMY forced Colt to provide) instead of a more reliable and less-complex full-auto carbine. All the other rifles evaluated were full-auto.
The Colt were run with used magazines, worn gas rings, no Crane o-rings and in 3-round burst. The other rifles were run full auto, new out of the box, with magazines selected by the manufacturer.
The results were predictable even before the test began.
Not to say the HK416 or SA aren't fine rifles, but the M4 was competing with an unfair disadvantage.
Here is the answer my brother
Magazine Crush Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCFXcOOb4jc
PMAG TEST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdesKUSUchA&feature=fvwrel
Well that and obviously the round count window..... all kinds of awesome
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Define Standard, and then remember that standard is not high performance, its an acceptable average
It would not be the first time. I am not sure if you are even being serious here.
At least you admit you have no Idea. When a new product comes along and seriously changes the status quo, they raise the bar. So a new amazing mag that outperforms and outlasts USGI does in fact make the USGI mag "standard" I would say a low standard. and who amongst us likes to be "just good enough"
And I guess my question to you would be this, when you are clearing a building or being overrun, what is an acceptable number of stoppages?
Your answer of government control is scary. The answer is not "enforcing the use of issued equipment" the answer is what it has always been for almost everything.....
Education.
-Teach people what Milspec means,
-teach them how to be skeptical and critical of claims of advertising,
-teach them how to actually use there gear properly
-expose them to leading industry resources where they can get different opinions on new equipment
I mastered my C7, I understood well all the details of my C79. And I mean everything I even wrote a 6 page panflet for my Coy. C79 for dummies.
So when people like you and my old SgtM tell me that I cannot use a DR because its not issued, or because someone else might buy an MSTAR ??? Thats an awful awful reason. I knew more then them, and I did my best to educate others on optic trends and developments (not mandate and oppress them)
And from a Philosophical standpoint, we know that Soft Drinks, Ice Cream and French Fries are not performance food for Soldier/Athletes. But the Army still serves them at the Mess Hall, when we ask for Mandate on the food to weed out the junk , We get told then that we have "freedom to choose and that education about better options is the answer" our chain of command stays out of our lives there. And 100% physical health and fitness is more important then a Mag or an optic.
and following your logic we should have some kind of long gun registry, because some people cannot be trusted with long guns, and because of them we should all have our hands held by the Govt.
So if we say education and free choice is the answer there (and I agree) then why not on less critical things such as kit?
"why don't we put pads on the kids, helmets, head gear and mouth pieces
Then we could pad the floor and walls, put cameras inside bathroom stalls
We make sure only nice bands play, make every show a matinee"
Well, you certainly seem to have taken issue with my post. Not sure how army logic has turned into "my logic". As for your loaded question on how many stoppages are acceptable? The obvious answer is none. I test my mags, ones that don't work get put under my heel and turned in for new ones. We've been using aluminum mags for almost two decades, some are in poor shape. I'd test PMags if they were issued to me as well.
People like me? Buddy, you don't even know me so you can take your condescending tone and shove it. My answer was a way to explain big Army mentality, in no way did I say that I thought banning PMags was a good idea.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, just throwing some reasons out there. I personally don't give a rat's ass if troops want to use Acog's, not blouse their pants, or run PMags. Even if you and your PMag friends are breaking Canadian law by doing so.
Education? Sure, it's absolutely a great idea, but does that give the troops carte blanche because they think they know it all? They need just as much education as the CoC. Where does it stop though? You let troops use PMags because they think they're better, what next? Next thing you've got people bringing their own upper receivers because they think it's better than the issued one. Don't say it wouldn't happen, the net of full of american posts that have done just that.
I hear ya, I've seen plenty of decisions by the military that frustrate me to no end. We certainly don't have to like it and we can, and should, try and reason with them. Doesn't mean they'll change their mind.
A six page pamphlet on a C79? I think you're over thinking it.
This is another lesson on who buys the stuff doesn't have any idea what they are buying. I know we all have watched the PMag vs truck video done by Magpul. If anyone remembers the USGI mag failed in all tests. I believe the British issue mag did better. The cheap Canadian issue Thermo mags did better than the USGI. I don't know if we still use them with our C7's and C8's anymore, but when we did field exercises with US troops, I thought theirs were better, back then. So, alot of us traded the Americans for theirs. Looking back, I guess I got taken. Lol!
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Magpul is coming out with a new M3 PMAG which addresses all the minor issues that the PMAG had in the SCAR, Tavor, etc. (enlarged notch in the rear) as well as compatibility issues with the HK416, SA-80, etc. It's entirely possible this will become the new standard after extensive testing and when available.
