US Army stands by M4 carbine as its future weapon of choice - Janes
- Thread starter 22rimfiredude
- Start date
One interesting fact about the tests in December 2007 was the fact that three of the rifles had hammer forged barrels. The exception was the M4 which had to have the barrel replaced after 6000 rounds. The C7 and C8 have hammer forged barrels, I am not sure if it is possible to get a hammer forged barrel on civilian AR15's.
F22_RaptoR
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
Or they're going to be using them (When they originally were doing tests with their piston system, they were using button rifling, but were looking into hammer forged) so i dont know if they're using them yet or not.
I think Noveske uses hammer forged but i cant be sure... KAC uses hammer forging as well.
+1
As for Kev's weapon cleaning -- lots of lube
I'm not big on cleaning for cleanings sake -- but I run my guns really really wet.
When I do clean I just spray it down with MPro7 gun cleaner and wipe it off then punch thru the bbl and chamber -- takes me maybe 15min to do the most involved cleaning I do on a M4.
BTW -- LOL Mike
The C8FTHB is the SFW have the same barrel length, pretty much the same gun (rails are little different) though. I had the 14.5 inch flatop. How did you find the C8FTHB, besides "no problems", it looks awsome. Do they even have the 14.5 inch barrel overseas in the infantry anymore, recce still have them?
When I was working with Recce Sqn, they had the C7A2s. It was pretty funny seeing GIBs in the Coyote with the full size rifle trying to move around.
The only "problem" with the C8FTHB was using the ELCAN while wearing a headset, eye relief becoming a problem. That was solved by using the issue BUIS and taking off the ELCAN when mounted and remounted the scope and verifyng zero when going for an extended dismounted romp. IMHO the C8 is the ideal size for mounted operations and dismounted operations in the built up areas that we were working in. Engaging past 300m with the service rifle, at least in my experience, was not something that really happened.
The only "problem" with the C8FTHB was using the ELCAN while wearing a headset, eye relief becoming a problem. That was solved by using the issue BUIS and taking off the ELCAN when mounted and remounted the scope and verifyng zero when going for an extended dismounted romp. IMHO the C8 is the ideal size for mounted operations and dismounted operations in the built up areas that we were working in. Engaging past 300m with the service rifle, at least in my experience, was not something that really happened.
Troops the days of engaging the enemy at 3 to 400 yards with small arms is over!!! Ask Kevin B. I am sure he will verify this, most engagements happen at 100 or less and less is inside 50m. The C7A2 is a step in the right direction with it's collapsable butt, but and there is a BIG but. The A2 is still too long for mounted ops. I lugged one for a day or 2 and let me tell you for getting in and out of vehicles give me a C8 anytime!! Lighter and less chance of hanging up in your gear when you need to get your primary out of your way and go to your pistol.
Hijack time!!! Kevin do you find lots of lube works well in the sand? Gettin all the info I can dude. Picking up my 6004 when I get back to the big city.
Engagements out past 300 are usually met with 25mm or motars and 105's. Not to mention fast air.
Hijack time!!! Kevin do you find lots of lube works well in the sand? Gettin all the info I can dude. Picking up my 6004 when I get back to the big city.
Engagements out past 300 are usually met with 25mm or motars and 105's. Not to mention fast air.
- Location
- currently downrange
powerpoint on the test is posted at defence review. no telling where the brief came from though.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1084
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1084
Thanks Kevin,
Does anyone else find it difficult to shoot with an Elcan lefty, while wearing a PRR? Or any headset with a boom mike? I can't get a proper sight picture without the mike poking me in the eye or moving my glasses. I can't find a headset with a boom that comes down on the right side of my face. The EO tech is a little better but I would prefer an iron sight, like we used to have on the C-7 The carrying handle one. I would like to get one of them as well.
Does anyone else find it difficult to shoot with an Elcan lefty, while wearing a PRR? Or any headset with a boom mike? I can't get a proper sight picture without the mike poking me in the eye or moving my glasses. I can't find a headset with a boom that comes down on the right side of my face. The EO tech is a little better but I would prefer an iron sight, like we used to have on the C-7 The carrying handle one. I would like to get one of them as well.
Jay T.........Heres a quick article on Lube, the author is Mr. Larry Vickers, his credentials are 2nd to none. Kevin B will back that statement up, hope this helps.
TACTICAL TIPS
Weapon Lubrication
Far and away the most common problem I see when instructing is lack of proper lubrication. This goes for civilians, LE, and military. Of the groups I train on a regular basis military Spec Ops definitely understands the importance of lube the most but it is still common to find weapons not lubricated properly. And what I mean by properly is having lube in/on the working parts of the weapon.
Many weapon systems will not tolerate lack of lubrication and continue to function for any length of time. The US military M16/M4 family and M9 pistol are prime examples of two weapons that do not work well or for long without lubricant. Another example is tightly fitted custom or semi custom 1911 pistols. Simply put these weapons and others REQUIRE lubricant to function reliably - no way around it.
There are weapons that do not require alot of lubricant to function reliably. The AK family and Glock pistols come to mind. Also HK does extensive testing for reliable function with little or no lube so by and large HK weapons are very forgiving to lack of lubricant by design. However too many shooters rely on that as standard operating procedure and don't assess the situation correctly; these guns are designed to continue to function without lube in EXTREME (not daily) conditions but every weapon works better with lubricant.
The golden rule in weapons lubricant is you can run a gun dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry. Truer words have never been spoken about weapons lubricant. Guns always work better the cleaner they are but most modern designs are far more forgiving about carbon fouling than they are about lubrication. Remember to keep it lubed always and clean it when you can and you will be much better off over the long haul.
The topic of keeping a weapon dry in desert environments comes up quite often. Sand is the ultimate enemy of guns and can wreak havoc with modern small arms. I have been part of extreme weapons testing and can tell you that I have no doubt in my mind that in sandy environments you are much better of with a gun that is wet than one that is dry. Having sand coat your small arm like a sugar cookie with some lubricant still in place is a better situation than a completely dry weapon in a sandy environment. Your weapon may still malfunction but not anything like it would if it was bone dry. It is unbelievable how non functional a dry weapon can become in an extreme sandy environment. It will become manually operated at a bare minimum. Your best bet for a functional weapon in extreme conditions is to keep it lubed and keep it covered. It may take longer to employ the weapon depending on the cover used but it will most likely work when you need it to.
Last thing I will cover is choice of lubricant. First off any lube is better than no lube. Just because you don't have your favorite synthetic gun oil doesn't mean you don't lube your weapon. With that being said in my experience the thin light lubes like WD40 and RemOil are to be avoided. They will provide a rust barrier and that is about it; they are not suitable for moving parts lubricant. There are alot of lubes on the market but I still like TW25B for a grease type lube and Militec for a wet lube. My friend Ken Hackathorn swears by aircraft grade Lubriplate and has used it for years as a grease type lube. The grease type lubricants require more effort to apply but tend to stay put longer. TW25B is superb for crew served weapons like belt feed machine guns and is the best lubricant I have ever seen for sandy or wet environments. In my old unit we affectionately call it 'desert jizz' because once we started using it the reliability of our belt fed weapons increased dramatically in extreme environments such as the desert. Highly recommended.
There are times where applying a grease lubricant is a pain such as high volume range fire sessions. For those applications as well as general purpose use I have used and like Militec wet lube. From my experience it works well even in temperature extremes and is the right balance between being too thin to do the job and so thick it gums up when cold. Keep in mind it is easy to apply so it is easy to come off also. With wet lubes like Militec you have to lubricate your weapon more frequently than with a grease like TW25B.
Please don't get your panties in a bunch since I did not mention your pet lubricant. I am sure there are dozens of excellent lubricants on the market I am not aware of that do a great job; I am simply stating what has worked for me with very good results for many years. In parting I would remind you to remember two key points about weapons lube; any lube is better than no lube and you can run a gun dirty and wet (or lubed) but you cannot run one dirty and dry. Abide by these two rules and they will do you right
TACTICAL TIPS
Weapon Lubrication
Far and away the most common problem I see when instructing is lack of proper lubrication. This goes for civilians, LE, and military. Of the groups I train on a regular basis military Spec Ops definitely understands the importance of lube the most but it is still common to find weapons not lubricated properly. And what I mean by properly is having lube in/on the working parts of the weapon.
Many weapon systems will not tolerate lack of lubrication and continue to function for any length of time. The US military M16/M4 family and M9 pistol are prime examples of two weapons that do not work well or for long without lubricant. Another example is tightly fitted custom or semi custom 1911 pistols. Simply put these weapons and others REQUIRE lubricant to function reliably - no way around it.
There are weapons that do not require alot of lubricant to function reliably. The AK family and Glock pistols come to mind. Also HK does extensive testing for reliable function with little or no lube so by and large HK weapons are very forgiving to lack of lubricant by design. However too many shooters rely on that as standard operating procedure and don't assess the situation correctly; these guns are designed to continue to function without lube in EXTREME (not daily) conditions but every weapon works better with lubricant.
The golden rule in weapons lubricant is you can run a gun dirty and wet, but not dirty and dry. Truer words have never been spoken about weapons lubricant. Guns always work better the cleaner they are but most modern designs are far more forgiving about carbon fouling than they are about lubrication. Remember to keep it lubed always and clean it when you can and you will be much better off over the long haul.
The topic of keeping a weapon dry in desert environments comes up quite often. Sand is the ultimate enemy of guns and can wreak havoc with modern small arms. I have been part of extreme weapons testing and can tell you that I have no doubt in my mind that in sandy environments you are much better of with a gun that is wet than one that is dry. Having sand coat your small arm like a sugar cookie with some lubricant still in place is a better situation than a completely dry weapon in a sandy environment. Your weapon may still malfunction but not anything like it would if it was bone dry. It is unbelievable how non functional a dry weapon can become in an extreme sandy environment. It will become manually operated at a bare minimum. Your best bet for a functional weapon in extreme conditions is to keep it lubed and keep it covered. It may take longer to employ the weapon depending on the cover used but it will most likely work when you need it to.
Last thing I will cover is choice of lubricant. First off any lube is better than no lube. Just because you don't have your favorite synthetic gun oil doesn't mean you don't lube your weapon. With that being said in my experience the thin light lubes like WD40 and RemOil are to be avoided. They will provide a rust barrier and that is about it; they are not suitable for moving parts lubricant. There are alot of lubes on the market but I still like TW25B for a grease type lube and Militec for a wet lube. My friend Ken Hackathorn swears by aircraft grade Lubriplate and has used it for years as a grease type lube. The grease type lubricants require more effort to apply but tend to stay put longer. TW25B is superb for crew served weapons like belt feed machine guns and is the best lubricant I have ever seen for sandy or wet environments. In my old unit we affectionately call it 'desert jizz' because once we started using it the reliability of our belt fed weapons increased dramatically in extreme environments such as the desert. Highly recommended.
There are times where applying a grease lubricant is a pain such as high volume range fire sessions. For those applications as well as general purpose use I have used and like Militec wet lube. From my experience it works well even in temperature extremes and is the right balance between being too thin to do the job and so thick it gums up when cold. Keep in mind it is easy to apply so it is easy to come off also. With wet lubes like Militec you have to lubricate your weapon more frequently than with a grease like TW25B.
Please don't get your panties in a bunch since I did not mention your pet lubricant. I am sure there are dozens of excellent lubricants on the market I am not aware of that do a great job; I am simply stating what has worked for me with very good results for many years. In parting I would remind you to remember two key points about weapons lube; any lube is better than no lube and you can run a gun dirty and wet (or lubed) but you cannot run one dirty and dry. Abide by these two rules and they will do you right
