US M17 manufacture date?

MD

MD

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When was an Eddystone in the 1,330,000 range made?

Are there any quality issues to be aware of?

This one had red paint on the muzzle end and except for some light wear and tear on the wood looks like it is in remarkable condition for 98 years old.

Came most recently from the Queen Charlotte Islands.
 
MD said:
When was an Eddystone in the 1,330,000 range made?

Are there any quality issues to be aware of?

This one had red paint on the muzzle end and except for some light wear and tear on the wood looks like it is in remarkable condition for 98 years old.

Came most recently from the Queen Charlotte Islands.
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Dec 1918 or early Jan 1919.

I don't know if you know this but your rifle was one of the very last M1917's made after the war ended and before the contract was cancelled and all these ones made after the wars end went straight into long term storage. That is why the late date ones are often the ones in best shape as they were issuing and using them right up until Nov. 11 1918.

The last official government listed serial number of these Eddystone made M1917 rifles was serial # 1,354,701 as of Jan 1919. The last officially listed Nov 1918 serial number was 1,181,908, so your one was completed sometime in Dec 1918 or Jan 1919.

Your rifle at serial number in the 1,330,000 range puts it into one of the last post war batches of these rifles and the only thing that goes against it was these are the ones that were pumped out as quick as possible before they cancelled the contract as of Jan 1919. They were told by the US defence dept. that as of Jan 1919 no more rifles would be accepted and as the workers were being paid per rifle completed and sold they rushed to make as many as possible before the cutoff date.

These late production M1917's and especially the Eddystone ones are the ones with slightly poorer quality parts and construction, especially the heat treatment as they really rushed the process and are the ones that often have the very hard micro cracked receivers when either re-barreled during WW2 or later or if they were dropped onto hard surfaces.

Red paint on the muzzle end means it was used by either the British or Canadian military as a rear echelon or home guard arm and was to inform those using it that it took .30-06 ammo instead of .303 that the very similar P14 took.

Although, if you use it as is it should be fine and should still shoot very well and safely, as these rifles are way over engineered for their intended later .30-06 use.
 
"Red paint on the muzzle end means it was used by either the British or Canadian military as a rear echelon or home guard arm and was to inform those using it that it took .30-06 ammo instead of .303 that the very similar P14 took."

I have a good hunch it was used as exactly that, either in the Coast Rangers or for use in an air force base in the Charlottes or Prince Rupert. Haven't found a C-broad Arrow on it yet though. Bolt matches.
 
If it came from here, and has red paint, it was PCMR. Should be a date on the barrel right behind the front sight.

Most of the PCMR here got M-17's, the guys at the Alliford Bay flying boat station probably had a few, as well. The Army guys there had No.4's and US M1 helmets.

The PCMR guys had the opportunity to buy the M-17's for $5 when they were disbanded. Lots of them got cut down, others didn't see much use at all after the war. Incidentally, they were never called "M-1917's" or "P-17's". The old timers always called them "Eddystones" or "Springfields". They also got bayonets and steel helmets. I have a Winchester dated 10-18, all matching. Ex PCMR.

I read an article on line about the Canadian use of the M-1917 in WW2, it says that the Americans sent all of the bolts separate from the rifles, that is why they are often mis-matched. In my experience, most of the PCMR rifles are matching. I think it was the Canadian Army that mixed up the bolts, as we often see LB No.4's mis-matched. I was told that the soldiers had to remove the bolts before racking their rifles. No concern there for the PCMR.
 
The word I heard is that the p17s had unmarked bolts while in US service and it was only when the Canadians/UK got them that the bolts were serialized. That red paint should also have black 30/06 numerals on each side of the stock.

I also don't think the red paint would only have been PCMR issued rifles. There were just to many of them. I remember when they first came into International in Montreal. Most of them were excellent and out of the UK. The bolts were shipped separately from the rifles and to my knowledge no one made any effort to match them up. I have one with a bare bolt, no number. Headspace is perfect.

I do believe you are right that they saw rear echelon service only though.

I agree, leave the paint on the rifle. It is part of its history. IMHO removing the paint will lower the value of the rifle.

An old mentor, now deceased was an armorer and serviced PCMR rifles from Vancouver to Revelstoke and traveled by rail to each group. Later he ended up in Prince Rupert with the Canadian troops stationed there and after that he went further North to Alaska with them. When they got to Alaska they turned in all their P17s and were issued Garands. That's his story anyway. From his comments they were attached to an American Company and worked together. They didn't share barracks or tents though. There was a booming business amongst the Canadians because they could and did get liquor. Not sure whether it was issued or ordered in under the radar. The Americans were forbidden from having liquor on their base so the only place they could get their fix was on the Canadian side. That's his story, not mine.
 
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nowarningshot said:
You would already know this, but, Eddystone were the least desired of the three manufacturers for conversions. Some receivers had poor heat treatment and were brittle. They would crack when taking barrels off. Sounds like a non issue, as it seems to be in issue state.
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Part of the reason for this is that of the 3 factories making the P14 and M1917, Eddystone, Remington and Winchester only Eddystone setup solely to make only these rifles as fast and as cheap as possible. Eddystone was setup by Remington in a unused railway engine and car factory and was staffed by contracted workers (many who were unskilled) with only a small skilled workforce and who were paid piecemeal or piecework, meaning they were only paid on how many rifles or parts were completed.

The other 2 factories Remington and Winchester were already long established gun making factories who had many skilled workers to both make and supervise production. They did hire more staff to help turn out these rifles but these staff were trained and supervised well and not paid piecework.

As soon as the contracts on these rifles was terminated the other 2 factories went back to making other guns while Eddystone was promptly shutdown and all the staff laid off. Plus the 2 established factories had more pride in their work, a reputation to keep and did not need to rush their work so much.

This is why Eddystone made way more of these rifles than the other 2 combined, especially so when you also consider their P14 production and why they rushed their production and why shortcuts in production was sometimes taken, especially towards the end of production when the rush was accelerated to complete as many before the contract termination date.

Also it has been said that because of the volume of rifles being turned out at Eddystone that their tooling was starting to wear out and Eddystone and their owner (Remington) was not about to invest in new tooling as they knew the end of the production of these rifles and the factory was near.

They also were not following the strict and slow receiver heat treatment timeline and rushed this part by heating the actions up faster and speeding up the treatment which then caused a lot of these Eddystone rifles to have somewhat brittle receivers that would often get cracks form when anyone tried to remove or replace the original barrel.
 
bearhunter said:
The word I heard is that the p17s had unmarked bolts while in US service and it was only when the Canadians/UK got them that the bolts were serialized. That red paint should also have black 30/06 numerals on each side of the stock.

I also don't think the red paint would only have been PCMR issued rifles. There were just to many of them. I remember when they first came into International in Montreal. Most of them were excellent and out of the UK. The bolts were shipped separately from the rifles and to my knowledge no one made any effort to match them up. I have one with a bare bolt, no number. Headspace is perfect.

I do believe you are right that they saw rear echelon service only though.

I agree, leave the paint on the rifle. It is part of its history. IMHO removing the paint will lower the value of the rifle.

An old mentor, now deceased was an armorer and serviced PCMR rifles from Vancouver to Revelstoke and traveled by rail to each group. Later he ended up in Prince Rupert with the Canadian troops stationed there and after that he went further North to Alaska with them. When they got to Alaska they turned in all their P17s and were issued Garands. That's his story anyway. From his comments they were attached to an American Company and worked together. They didn't share barracks or tents though. There was a booming business amongst the Canadians because they could and did get liquor. Not sure whether it was issued or ordered in under the radar. The Americans were forbidden from having liquor on their base so the only place they could get their fix was on the Canadian side. That's his story, not mine.
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Your right about the Americans not bothering to serial number the bolts, the only time a M1917 (P17) got a serial number applied to the bolt was when it was in UK or Canadian service as was standard practice at the time to have bolts numbered to the rifle.

Sometimes the .30-06 was painted in red and white too. I have seen ones with the .30-06 in red and in white.
 
Mine doesn't have a serial on the bolt, but it is Winchester marked so it is pretty much 99.9% guaranteed to be the original. A lot of the PCMR rifles had no red paint at all, and many had only a rather sloppily applied bit of paint with no ".30-06" marking or anything. There is one in the local museum with almost as many stampings in the wood as a Ross, looks like it was in the Army for a bit before being sent west.

There have been some real horror stories about Eddystones, not just the M-1917's but their P-14's as well. A gunsmith friend split the receiver on one when he used a centre punch to mark a hole for a scope mount. Another acquaintance has one with a split barrel.
 
I have a sporterized Eddystone M17 that has been drilled and tapped for a scope with no issues. In fact, the holes in it when I got it were out of line so Shane at Reliable re-drilled it for me.
 
Not all Eddystones are brittle, just like the low number Springfields. Many if not most of those are fine, but some are like glass. There were various tests back in the day, like trying a file on a part of the receiver that you don't see. If the file just bounces off without doing anything, it is probably too hard.
 
I have a Winchester M1917 with matched bolt. This one came from a guy that was in the ARP in the Lower Mainland. It has C broad arrow on butt. Has red paint on forestock with the remnants of 30-06 in white on top of the red band.

Here are some pics





 
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