USArmy's New Pistols Often Eject Live Rounds and Don't Work Well With Regular Bullets
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Some here might want to read the specific report rather than base your opinion on a recap without knowing the purpose of the article. Google is your friend and the report dealing with the handgun portion of the report is not a difficult read. I read it and it sounded very much like what you would expect as the process moves from the lab to the field. There didn't seem to me to be anything that was not correctable.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
Yes I would guess the same : BAD MAG!
The Gwynne Dyer "Come as you are" theory of the next war. It was codswallop in the 80's when he came up with it, it's still codswallop today.
Look at the industrial output they pumped out as almost an afterthought for Iraq and Afghanistan. MRAP vehicles fast tracked from "need it" to designed, built, tested, approved, in 6 months. Infantry wide body armour upgrades, new bunker busting bombs, retrofitting old aircraft/land vehicles for new purposes...
As much as people decry the state of American Manufacturing, the depth and breadth of American industry and engineering is still unparalleled. And don't even say "But... but... CHINA!!! JAPAN!!!" They may have volume output, but their designs are still almost universally derivative, and American industry still edges them on diversity, not to mention the resources, finances, and talent needed to pivot.
Irrelevant. Buying a polymer framed striker fired service pistol that isn't a Glock is what's retarded. These teething problems on the Sig pistol will be fixed. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Why even replace the beretta in the first place by another 9mm when the beretta has worked for so many years ? It sounds like some higher ups negotiate between themselves to get bonuses , don't think it has much to do with providing a better firearms as the main goal
What?!?!?! How would going with Glock save money?!?!?!?
Sig Sauer beat out Glock by more than $100+ million!
"The Glock proposal quoted $272,232,563. The Sig, $169,527,169, leading it to be selected in January to fill the need for what will be the new M17 and M18 handguns for the military. “The price analysis shows that the Sig Sauer total evaluated price is $102,705,394 less than the Glock total evaluated price, making the Sig Sauer proposal overall the Best Value to the Government,” says the decision."
Glock protested the selection on Feb. 24, arguing the Army Material Command did not properly evaluate their proposal, citing officials improperly calculated Sig Sauer’s total price by undercounting the number of spare parts required and other factors.
Taking a second look at it after the protest, the Army crunched the figures again and admitted they miscalculated Sig’s pricing, noting the correct number of spares would add another $1.6 million to their price, still falling short of bridging the gap noted by the selection authority.
Glock also outlined a series of protests related to ammunition, the gun’s manual safety weight, and others, which the GAO found that, even if granted, “does not appear likely to provide Glock with a substantial chance of receiving the award.”
The 17-round capacity M17 is set to replace the various versions of the M9 Beretta placed into service with the Army since 1985 while the M18 will supplement the M11 Sig. The Fort Campbell, Kentucky-based 101st Airborne will be the first to use the new handguns, possibly as early as this year.
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The Sig 226 was used by the SEALS and many other tier one SOF units the world over for many many years and served with distinction (still going currently)
To say Sig handguns are junk at all is idiotic. Glocks are outstanding firearms as well. Reliability and cost being their primary appeal. I don't own one personally but have shot them a lot and I have much respect for them.
The 320 design didn't seem like it was fully developed enough (I'm sure they are hammering out the kinks). Having fired and owned a 226 for many years I can attest to the quality, reliability and accuracy of that design. I have no personal experience with the 320 other than shooting a friends a couple range trips ago.
The US Army should have completed testing it appears.
The 320 design needs to be tweaked by the sounds of it.
I still prefer the 1911 personally but it's very outdated in that it is limited as a SA only automatic pistol these days making it unsat for modern military demands.
It's always humorous to me though to see people using this occurrence as a sounding board for the omnipresent, generalized "Sig vs Glock" internet special Olympics debate lol...
To say Sig handguns are junk at all is idiotic. Glocks are outstanding firearms as well. Reliability and cost being their primary appeal. I don't own one personally but have shot them a lot and I have much respect for them.
The 320 design didn't seem like it was fully developed enough (I'm sure they are hammering out the kinks). Having fired and owned a 226 for many years I can attest to the quality, reliability and accuracy of that design. I have no personal experience with the 320 other than shooting a friends a couple range trips ago.
The US Army should have completed testing it appears.
The 320 design needs to be tweaked by the sounds of it.
I still prefer the 1911 personally but it's very outdated in that it is limited as a SA only automatic pistol these days making it unsat for modern military demands.
It's always humorous to me though to see people using this occurrence as a sounding board for the omnipresent, generalized "Sig vs Glock" internet special Olympics debate lol...
Some of the Glock fan club ought to go back and review the 1985 requirements and compare them to the 2017 standard. I suspect you will get your eyes opened up when it comes to reliability and accuracy requirements. As to reliability the Glock is no more reliable than any other mainstream pistol. The Glock lost out because the Glock bid was flawed as much as anything. Do some Google work and some of the reasons for not getting the contract aside from the $100MM difference in bidding falls to incompetence of the Glock management.
In this Beta Testing that is now going on 8 out of 132 shooters accounted for of the soldiers accounted for 60% of the stoppages which were due to the slide failing to lock back on the last round. This was determined to involve the placement of the grip used by the soldiers interfering with the slide stop lever. The issue would be resolved with proper training. Now even for the most cynical, KIDDX comes to mind, it is simply a training issue.
Go here for the report the full report. Scroll down to the handgun testing report.
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/
The armchair boys can whine as they wish SIG got the contract. The 320 is an excellent pistol and SIG's bid met ALL of the contract requirements. Glock did not.
Take Care
Bob
ps The contract apparently called for a detailed relationship with ammunition suppliers. SIG provided this through a partnership with Winchester. Glock did not provide the required detailed information. It seems that was a major opps.
In this Beta Testing that is now going on 8 out of 132 shooters accounted for of the soldiers accounted for 60% of the stoppages which were due to the slide failing to lock back on the last round. This was determined to involve the placement of the grip used by the soldiers interfering with the slide stop lever. The issue would be resolved with proper training. Now even for the most cynical, KIDDX comes to mind, it is simply a training issue.
Go here for the report the full report. Scroll down to the handgun testing report.
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/
The armchair boys can whine as they wish SIG got the contract. The 320 is an excellent pistol and SIG's bid met ALL of the contract requirements. Glock did not.
Take Care
Bob
ps The contract apparently called for a detailed relationship with ammunition suppliers. SIG provided this through a partnership with Winchester. Glock did not provide the required detailed information. It seems that was a major opps.
SIG was a much more competent and efficient company back when they designed the P226.
Since adopting the American corporate business model, where shareholders always come before customers, they might as well have become Colt.
Heck, a re-introduction of the Colt All American 2000 could have hardly been less derpy than the SIG 420, I mean 320.
Since adopting the American corporate business model, where shareholders always come before customers, they might as well have become Colt.
Heck, a re-introduction of the Colt All American 2000 could have hardly been less derpy than the SIG 420, I mean 320.
I own a Glock 17, but I don't think it would've made any better a service pistol than a Beretta M9A3 variant. Glock's are not easy pistols to shoot with any accuracy for people that only fire a couple dozen rounds a year (i.e. average troops). Case in point Google: "Glock shoots left" and see the millions of threads about grip problems, trigger control issues and lack of practice. It's just not a great pistol for the infrequent shooter.
The Sig 320 is a bit of an odd pick though. I have yet to hear anyone rave about that pistol, just hear plenty of minor grievances. Cost pushed the selection criteria SIG's way.
The Sig 320 is a bit of an odd pick though. I have yet to hear anyone rave about that pistol, just hear plenty of minor grievances. Cost pushed the selection criteria SIG's way.
Yes riding the slide catch was the majority of the stoppages, but not all. The trigger splintering is a concern but maybe you glossed over that. I agree that ejecting live rounds with spent casings is likely a magazine issue. Something that likely would have been discovered if the entire trials testing was completed, which it wasn't. Regardless, a magazine that is failing less than 2000 rounds into use is pathetic and something that should never happen. If you notice the testing was done with the HP ammo only, not the ball ammo as a root cause analysis team was/is trying to solve the double ejection problem. Does it seem odd that the slide riding only occurred with ball ammo and not HP ammo? How and why would the ammo choice affect the grip of the shooter???
Teething problems that should have been fixed by SIG before submitting the pistol. Teething problems that would have likely been discovered had the MIL completed all testing for the MHS contract..
The Beretta is an over sized over weight pistol with a sh*tty control layout. Far too many parts, no rail for lights/lasers, fixed front sight(not tritium either) and less than reliable. DA/SA guns require more training to be proficient, the DA trigger pull is absolute a$$ and the SA has a ton of slack.
Time will tell. The money being wasted to solve problems that shouldn't be there is where the $100+ million will be consumed.
SIG won the contract on price alone. Incomplete testing means the winner isn't really the winner. I agree the ammunition issue was a huge black eye for Glock.
The 320 is far from excellent. The not drop safe scandal should be enough to turn you away from SIG. The trigger for a single action striker fired gun is sh*t. Tons of slack, no defined wall, and even less defined reset which still has slack. The 320 trigger is the same as 22X series gun in SA. They're wider than a Glock, they weigh more than a Glock, they have more parts than a Glock. For a copy of the Glock recipe(polymer frame, striker fired, no manual safety(civvie guns)) it's far from equal let alone better..
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The guys who actually use pistols get to pick their gun. Glock is the standard, sure, but that doesn't mean they're actually using them in combat much.
Training or the lack thereof is the reason people can't shoot any pistol well. Some designs are easier for mastering the fundamentals and Glock(and other striker fired guns) are easier to learn vs their hammer fired counterparts.
Yes. But they also have the ability to pick whatever gun they want to carry (I'm sure it's more specific than that, but I don't know the exact details) so chances of them using the issued g19 and not something they pick is pretty low. Too be fair, they could pick a g19 if that's what they like, but they don't have to.
