Use of the Enfield P14 by Canada

Andy

Andy

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Here's a pic of the Uncle of a friend taken in Canada early in WWII. He was a Gunner with the Royal Canadian Artillery who served in Italy and Europe. He's holding a P14 and has the associated Model 1913 bayonet on his hip.

I understand that they were not used in Europe, but how were they used (training?) and what units were issued them? Army, Navy, Airforce? When and how were they surplused?

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I do not think that P'14s were used outside of Canada by Cdn. troops during WW2, apart from some T versions. P'14s and Rosses were used in Canada for training.
 
I supplied 5 P14s and P17s for a film Paradise Siding back about 25+ years ago.
It was a film based in WWII in Canada with POWs and the Veteran Guards.
I supplied the bayonets, scabbards, and frogs.
I love the P14s and 17s as shooters.
 
Hi Andy. The rifle in the photograph is a. 30-06 M17 U.S. service rifle. 10.000 were acquired in WW2 by Canada mainly for the RCAF. Some had a RCAF logo stamped into the butt, some had a C broad arrow stamped, some had a red band painted around the fore wood to distinguish using non-standard ammo (i.e. not .303). Cartridges came in 20 round cardboard boxes with a red band around the box. Of course bayonets were supplied with the rifles. Canada ground off the American belt hook on the scabbard so that normal web frogs could be used and most often a C broad arrow was stamped on the left side pommel. All usually found in great condition today as all were used domestically in Canada only. My father was Ontario trained in 1942 with the SMLE rifle. Upon departure for active service in the European theatre the SMLEs were retaining in barracks for the next group and his unit was issued M17s boarding ship. Upon disembarkation rifles were turned over to a Home Guard unit in a lorry waiting on the dock and they marched off to arranged billets unarmed.
Canada did receive a very limited amount of P-14 rifles during WW1. They were all Eddystone with the bulbous wood fore and very early serials. All were put in store and never used as it was deemed Ross manufacture was to ramp up so no point spending money. I believe there were 2 of these Eddystone rifles that were fitted with Ross Warner and Swazey scopes for sniper use in Italy as Canada had to make up a shortfall. Also it is apparent that Canada did receive 2 P14s with the Model 1918 scope after WW1 for examination or trials but decided to stick with the Ross sniper rifles they had on hand deemed sufficient. All P14 snipers were Winchester made.
The poor quality of the photo prohibits exact differentiation between P-14 and M17. If a domestic location which I think it is then its a M17.
The only way for an artillery man to get a P14 in active service in Italy would be from the Brits and not Canadian issue. JOHN
 
A WW2 Army armorer (Ralph Cathline) told me an interesting story.

A large shipment of Enfields came to Canada. The bolts were shipped separately from the rifles.

Rather than try to match them all up, it was decided to fit random bolts to rifles, adjust headspace as (if) required and to re-number each bolt.

I don't recall if he said anything about 303 or 30-06.
 
We had 80k of these is service right before ww2 plus another 20k on loan from the Americans before we adopted the no4 enfield.
 
Hi Ganderite. Please take my criticism lightly. The story is simply not true. The reason that long Branch arsenal was set up in 1941 was to supply Enfields (and eventually Stens) to Great Britain. In fact SMLEs and even Rosses were the standard army training rifle in the early war days. We didn't have enough new rifles to meet domestic demands. Almost all of the '41 Mk I LBs made went to England quickly. With the Japs joining the slaughter in Dec '41 that initiated a couple of inspectors arriving from New Zealand to select No.4s at LB for shipment to NZ. They electro penciled serial numbers on the body and even on the bayonets prior to shipment. Some were stamped with a NZ property stamp on the butt. So for the most part our lads made due with the SMLE's from the straight swap arranged with the Brits prior to Vimy Ridge or with Ross Rifles. The recruits for the Alberta Mounted Rifles used some Rosses originally made in 1906. Some units marched with wood made mock ups. Canada never received rifles from GB and it wasn't until later on in 1942 that M17's were acquired from U.S. By late '42 some units could finally get our No.4s. Of course M17's were not bolt serialed. Also when you have no spares you cannot adjust headspace on the No.4. unless you want to stone heads near forever. JOHN
 
jtaylor said:
Hi Ganderite. Please take my criticism lightly. The story is simply not true. The reason that long Branch arsenal was set up in 1941 was to supply Enfields (and eventually Stens) to Great Britain. In fact SMLEs and even Rosses were the standard army training rifle in the early war days. We didn't have enough new rifles to meet domestic demands. Almost all of the '41 Mk I LBs made went to England quickly. With the Japs joining the slaughter in Dec '41 that initiated a couple of inspectors arriving from New Zealand to select No.4s at LB for shipment to NZ. They electro penciled serial numbers on the body and even on the bayonets prior to shipment. Some were stamped with a NZ property stamp on the butt. So for the most part our lads made due with the SMLE's from the straight swap arranged with the Brits prior to Vimy Ridge or with Ross Rifles. The recruits for the Alberta Mounted Rifles used some Rosses originally made in 1906. Some units marched with wood made mock ups. Canada never received rifles from GB and it wasn't until later on in 1942 that M17's were acquired from U.S. By late '42 some units could finally get our No.4s. Of course M17's were not bolt serialed. Also when you have no spares you cannot adjust headspace on the No.4. unless you want to stone heads near forever. JOHN
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Pretty sure he was referring to the M1917's, majority of the ones here in Canada have s/n'd bolts from this process. I have 2 of them in the safe.
P14's were numbered on bolt/barrel/receiver and rear sight from the factory.
 
Gents - I think we may have a consensus. My apologies I missed a zero in my research notes. At the beginning of WW2 Canada ordered
100,000 M17 rifles of which 80K arrived '40/'41 and 20K near '42 as in Oct '43 on charge were 98,587. All this courtesy of David Edgecombe's research producing "Defending the Dominion". Rifles taken overseas by troops probably accounts for the discrepancy. The M17 rifle was intended for training only. Ganderite stated his pal said that bolts were separated which caused headspace issues. Maybe thats why on Pg.135 it states that 78,179 were declared unserviceable. I have only seen 1 rifle in 50+ years collecting that had an electro penciled serial on the bolt but all the dozens of others no number. I have never seen spares coming from Canadian sources but I have never heard of a M17 have head space issues. In regards to the original post - David's book has 49 Canadian P-14 serial numbers listed so the chances of finding one
are next to nothing. I can state that of those 49 there are no Sniper Rifles listed - serials are too low. JOHN
 
jtaylor said:
Gents - I think we may have a consensus. My apologies I missed a zero in my research notes. At the beginning of WW2 Canada ordered
100,000 M17 rifles of which 80K arrived '40/'41 and 20K near '42 as in Oct '43 on charge were 98,587. All this courtesy of David Edgecombe's research producing "Defending the Dominion". Rifles taken overseas by troops probably accounts for the discrepancy. The M17 rifle was intended for training only. Ganderite stated his pal said that bolts were separated which caused headspace issues. Maybe thats why on Pg.135 it states that 78,179 were declared unserviceable. I have only seen 1 rifle in 50+ years collecting that had an electro penciled serial on the bolt but all the dozens of others no number. I have never seen spares coming from Canadian sources but I have never heard of a M17 have head space issues. In regards to the original post - David's book has 49 Canadian P-14 serial numbers listed so the chances of finding one
are next to nothing. I can state that of those 49 there are no Sniper Rifles listed - serials are too low. JOHN
Click to expand...

The M17's have stamped s/n's under the bolt handles, not ep'd.
20220124-112904.jpg
 
Andy said:
That particular rifle shoots very well as I recall.
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Yes it does, I put on a spare PH rear site I had kicking around and an SP K31 clamp on target front site, fits the barrel same as a K31 so I can use Anschutz front inserts now with it. Great bench shooter.
 
bearhunter said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but P17s bolts are usually unserialized.
Click to expand...

I had asked what some time ago on CGN and was really no answer - Britain, and therefore Canada, I presume, appeared very fussy that their bolts have matching numbers to the receiver. I could not find that USA did that for any of their bolt rifles - so, I never did discover why that is?? For example - the P14's were made in exact same factories as were the M1917's - machining abilities likely had not changed - Britain insisted on serial numbers on their rifle's bolts, USA did not. So far as I can guess, USA must not have had same concern about precise headspace, that Britain did, for their respective service rifles??? Unless USA had some other - unknown-to-me - way of keeping track of which bolt went to which rifle??

When researching what turned out to be a genuine Boer Mauser, made in 1896, I was told by email from Dave George that it is known that it was common for Boer soldiers to abscond with carbine bolts, if they could get them - and use them in their long rifles - so at least that far back, Mauser was able to make bolts nearly perfectly interchangeable (or at least "close enough for government work") among their rifles??
 
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bearhunter said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but P17s bolts are usually unserialized.
Click to expand...

You are correct, as purple says, they came off the line with no s/n.
Danes and Canada numbered them, probably as Ganderite stated rifles and bolts were shipped separately for some odd reason. That one I posted is a Winchester made M1917 with a Remington bolt S/N to match. It has some C-> marked on it as well, you can kind of see one on the right side of the rear sight wing there in the pic.
 
Potashminer said:
I had asked what some time ago on CGN and was really no answer - Britain, and therefore Canada, I presume, appeared very fussy that their bolts have matching numbers to the receiver. I could not find that USA did that for any of their bolt rifles - so, I never did discover why that is?? For example - the P14's were made in exact same factories as were the M1917's - machining abilities likely had not changed - Britain insisted on serial numbers on their rifle's bolts, USA did not. So far as I can guess, USA must not have had same concern about precise headspace, that Britain did, for their respective service rifles??? Unless USA had some other - unknown-to-me - way of keeping track of which bolt went to which rifle??

When researching what turned out to be a genuine Boer Mauser, made in 1896, I was told by email from Dave George that it is known that it was common for Boer soldiers to abscond with carbine bolts, if they could get them - and use them in their long rifles - so at least that far back, Mauser was able to make bolts nearly perfectly interchangeable (or at least "close enough for government work") among their rifles??
Click to expand...

One reason it's very difficult to find South American Mausers of all variants with matching bolts, especially, Peru, Chile, Argentina is that the troops would remove the bolts from their rifles when they were stacked in the field. Rumor has it that they just grabbed whichever rifle was at hand and inserted the bolt during stessful conditions.

This is what I was told over 50 years ago.

I quite literally searched through several thousand otherwise 95% condition rifles to find enough to fill ten crates for Alan Lever around 1967. That was in Chile and the Model 1912 rifles were all chambered in 7x57. Same thing happened with well over 2000 Peruvian Model 1909 rifles chambered in 7.65x53.

I have a couple of M1917 bolts without serial numbers and another M1917 with serial number stamps.

All have manufacturer stamps, R, RE, W.
 
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