Use of the Enfield P14 by Canada

Potashminer said:
I had asked what some time ago on CGN and was really no answer - Britain, and therefore Canada, I presume, appeared very fussy that their bolts have matching numbers to the receiver. I could not find that USA did that for any of their bolt rifles - so, I never did discover why that is?? For example - the P14's were made in exact same factories as were the M1917's - machining abilities likely had not changed - Britain insisted on serial numbers on their rifle's bolts, USA did not. So far as I can guess, USA must not have had same concern about precise headspace, that Britain did, for their respective service rifles??? Unless USA had some other - unknown-to-me - way of keeping track of which bolt went to which rifle??

When researching what turned out to be a genuine Boer Mauser, made in 1896, I was told by email from Dave George that it is known that it was common for Boer soldiers to abscond with carbine bolts, if they could get them - and use them in their long rifles - so at least that far back, Mauser was able to make bolts nearly perfectly interchangeable (or at least "close enough for government work") among their rifles??
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The Italians with the Carcanos only serialized the bolts very early on, then didn't serialized them and treated them as interchangeable. Usually it is fine with many rifles, it is just when it isn't a matched bolt the odds of getting bad headspace increase (though especially 70+ years after service, matching numbers doesn't protect against that either). Lee Enfields for example are much more important to have a matching bolt as with the many different bolt heads and the mating of the bolts to the rifles, it can be a huge difference between one rifle and another.


bearhunter said:
One reason it's very difficult to find South American Mausers of all variants with matching bolts, especially, Peru, Chile, Argentina is that the troops would remove the bolts from their rifles when they were stacked in the field. Rumor has it that they just grabbed whichever rifle was at hand and inserted the bolt during stessful conditions.

This is what I was told over 50 years ago.

I quite literally searched through several thousand otherwise 95% condition rifles to find enough to fill ten crates for Alan Lever around 1967. That was in Chile and the Model 1912 rifles were all chambered in 7x57. Same thing happened with well over 2000 Peruvian Model 1909 rifles chambered in 7.65x53.

I have a couple of M1917 bolts without serial numbers and another M1917 with serial number stamps.

All have manufacturer stamps, R, RE, W.
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I suspect a bit of it comes down to how much the importers cared or how the nation took care of it. Much like how most recent SKS imports have mismatched magazines, it isn't because the Russians stored them that way, it is because the importers pinned them and simply slapped them back in a rifle. Or the classic WWII here is a pile of rifles, bolts are in another pile, grab a rifle, and grab a bolt.

I would bet those troops never removed the bolts from the rifle except to clean and that is likely just a story they came up with to justify not having the matching number bolt to the prospective buyer.
 
"pile of rifles, pile of bolts" - is described in Dave George books that is how British, Canadian and Australians handled Boer captured arms in the Second Boer War - 1899-1902 - rifles piled on pallets - layer East -West, then next layer North-South - bolts removed and tossed in barrel. Buyers at the scene promptly bought up the pallets and barrels - often from USA - no attempt to match up numbers - a bolt into a rifle - sold at USA retail.

He is one of two principles for the "Angel Matchmaking" on Milsurp - his books document several hundred rifles and bolt numbers in various parts of the world. They have occasionally "made a match" - a bolt in a rifle in Australia might match to a rifle in Germany - in a few instances, they have got bolt and rifle back together and presented to descendants of the Boer fighter that they could identify - identified through carvings done on rifle stock and through British Prisoner of War records. They have been doing this over 40 years - a long way to go - about 40,000 rifles shipped to ZAR and OVS from Mauser in Germany - the table in his Volume #3 might have 200 rifles and 200 bolts listed.

He also notes in one of his books - for Canadians - so presumably also for British and Australia - was the last conflict were our soldiers were legally allowed to keep the rifles that were issued to them by the Crown, and also to keep any "prizes" that they had dragged along with them. Might explain the occasional rifle found with its original bolt still in it.
 
This thread has done like "Wikipedia" and taken us in an unexpected direction and that's fine.

Interesting bit about bolts. I have sold my P14 and P17, but have two P14 bolts (Winchester and Eddystone), both serialized but quite differently and a P17 bolt (Eddystone) with no serialization, from which I can assume it was only ever in US service.
 
Potashminer said:
"pile of rifles, pile of bolts" - is described in Dave George books that is how British, Canadian and Australians handled Boer captured arms in the Second Boer War - 1899-1902 - rifles piled on pallets - layer East -West, then next layer North-South - bolts removed and tossed in barrel. Buyers at the scene promptly bought up the pallets and barrels - often from USA - no attempt to match up numbers - a bolt into a rifle - sold at USA retail.

He is one of two principles for the "Angel Matchmaking" on Milsurp - his books document several hundred rifles and bolt numbers in various parts of the world. They have occasionally "made a match" - a bolt in a rifle in Australia might match to a rifle in Germany - in a few instances, they have got bolt and rifle back together and presented to descendants of the Boer fighter that they could identify - identified through carvings done on rifle stock and through British Prisoner of War records. They have been doing this over 40 years - a long way to go - about 40,000 rifles shipped to ZAR and OVS from Mauser in Germany - the table in his Volume #3 might have 200 rifles and 200 bolts listed.

He also notes in one of his books - for Canadians - so presumably also for British and Australia - was the last conflict were our soldiers were legally allowed to keep the rifles that were issued to them by the Crown, and also to keep any "prizes" that they had dragged along with them. Might explain the occasional rifle found with its original bolt still in it.
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and yet the myth that someone has the rifle that Grandpa used in WWI or WWII persists.
 
Andy said:
and yet the myth that someone has the rifle that Grandpa used in WWI or WWII persists.
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Yes, I have met that story several times - but I think as if Great GrandPa used an SMLE during WWI, or a No. 4 in WWII and then 15 years later bought a surplus one - the part about "just like" got dropped or ignored with the re-telling of the story within the family ...
 
Potashminer said:
Yes, I have met that story several times - but I think as if Great GrandPa used an SMLE during WWI, or a No. 4 in WWII and then 15 years later bought a surplus one - the part about "just like" got dropped or ignored with the re-telling of the story within the family ...
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X2 - Family Folklore can be so difficult to debunk that even irrefutable evidence is often dismissed.
 
jtaylor said:
Hi Ganderite. Please take my criticism lightly. The story is simply not true. The reason that long Branch arsenal was set up in 1941 was to supply Enfields (and eventually Stens) to Great Britain. In fact SMLEs and even Rosses were the standard army training rifle in the early war days. We didn't have enough new rifles to meet domestic demands. Almost all of the '41 Mk I LBs made went to England quickly. With the Japs joining the slaughter in Dec '41 that initiated a couple of inspectors arriving from New Zealand to select No.4s at LB for shipment to NZ. They electro penciled serial numbers on the body and even on the bayonets prior to shipment. Some were stamped with a NZ property stamp on the butt. So for the most part our lads made due with the SMLE's from the straight swap arranged with the Brits prior to Vimy Ridge or with Ross Rifles. The recruits for the Alberta Mounted Rifles used some Rosses originally made in 1906. Some units marched with wood made mock ups. Canada never received rifles from GB and it wasn't until later on in 1942 that M17's were acquired from U.S. By late '42 some units could finally get our No.4s. Of course M17's were not bolt serialed. Also when you have no spares you cannot adjust headspace on the No.4. unless you want to stone heads near forever. JOHN
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No. They did not make Enfields. They made Lee Enfields - a very different rifle.
 
Pallets weren't invented until long after the 2nd Boer War.

The war dragged on long after the formal surrender. Logically the British were keen to prevent surrendered arms getting back into Boer hands. Some were destroyed on the spot, as can be seen here: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-w...destroying-rifles-captured-from-49919345.html (It's a photo that has been painted over)

Others would have had their bolts removed to make theft or Boer recovery more difficult. At that point, bolts would almost certainly have been "thrown into barrels", but the idea of American buyers roaming around South Africa buying up such arms is practically impossible: the British authorities would never have trusted American arms dealers with Boer weapons, if only because so many Americans sympathized with, supported and even fought with the Boers.

A lot were burned, and some of those were dug up in South Africa within the last twenty years, others were probably dumped at sea. One thing we know: most of them disappeared were not seen again.
 
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