Using 12 Gauge Slugs for Bear Defense? Here's a slug review you'll want to watch.
- Thread starter Brobee
- Start date
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Great video and test Brobee.
The 12 gauge slug seems to have gotten alot of overrated press in recent years. Not really sure what brought this on, maybe it's alot of newer shooters in the 223/556 AR era or 3 -gun competitions and the slug seems like such a devastating hole maker on zombie targets or blowing up 2 liter pop bottles. Alot of tacticool thinking and tubing going on with shotguns and the slug seem to be the darling to turn your Mexican omelet maker into a precision rifle.
On Large Carnivores this would seem folly to me and your video proves just that with Forster type hollow point slugs aka 2500 ft lbs trying to push a square inch through.. The .308Win with 180 gr Imperial KKSP was seen to only penetrate a Moose's rear leg to the bone, stop and not break it twice, not even breaking it's stride !! The Slug would fair no better, and this rear leg on a cow would be a good comparison of trying to break the shoulder on that large bear target you chose.
A twelve gauge slug to me was always an improvised projectile used in a situation where the shot hunter encountered big game for the freezer and increased his probability of a takedown on deer and even moose broadside. It had no purpose, at least in my hand's, compared to the proper high power rifle cartridge for the intended game.With all it's proponents today, it's only pushing .308Win energy at those self-defense distances and then trying to push a full 1" frontal through at that.
We know Big Bears need deep penetration, so really it's not a dangerous game load if it ain't a solid, and a solid oz clocking a nice bit faster than a slug. I'd say the sub-caliber hardened sabot slugs would do the job much more reliability against a charging bear. Are these your choice?
The 12 gauge slug seems to have gotten alot of overrated press in recent years. Not really sure what brought this on, maybe it's alot of newer shooters in the 223/556 AR era or 3 -gun competitions and the slug seems like such a devastating hole maker on zombie targets or blowing up 2 liter pop bottles. Alot of tacticool thinking and tubing going on with shotguns and the slug seem to be the darling to turn your Mexican omelet maker into a precision rifle.
On Large Carnivores this would seem folly to me and your video proves just that with Forster type hollow point slugs aka 2500 ft lbs trying to push a square inch through.. The .308Win with 180 gr Imperial KKSP was seen to only penetrate a Moose's rear leg to the bone, stop and not break it twice, not even breaking it's stride !! The Slug would fair no better, and this rear leg on a cow would be a good comparison of trying to break the shoulder on that large bear target you chose.
A twelve gauge slug to me was always an improvised projectile used in a situation where the shot hunter encountered big game for the freezer and increased his probability of a takedown on deer and even moose broadside. It had no purpose, at least in my hand's, compared to the proper high power rifle cartridge for the intended game.With all it's proponents today, it's only pushing .308Win energy at those self-defense distances and then trying to push a full 1" frontal through at that.
We know Big Bears need deep penetration, so really it's not a dangerous game load if it ain't a solid, and a solid oz clocking a nice bit faster than a slug. I'd say the sub-caliber hardened sabot slugs would do the job much more reliability against a charging bear. Are these your choice?
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'd like to point out that all sabot slugs are not created equal. They are made for the vast WT deer market primarily. One would have to test each one out to get the final answer.
maybe
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Another hit from Brobee!!
Although I have to say working for Manitoba Conservation there are tons of black bears dispatched with these or the Federal equivalent and they are quite well respected for their killing reliability, especially in contrast to buckshot.
That being said, I'd like to ask my coworkers who work in the farther north about their experiences using these on polar bears, I'm pretty sure they'd use .308s instead.
Keep em comin
I'd be super curious to hear more about their perspective!
I've shot maybe a half a dozen bears with this load…and with the exception of the one I reference above who was making moves to head my way (frontal quartering shot), they've all been broadside and a bit further out (20 to 50 yards). In these circumstances, (broadside presentation and a bit more range), I'd have no issues at all using this slug. But pull the range in a bit, and rotate the bear so it's more of a frontal quartering type presentation and I'd be worried about insufficient penetration.
Thanks for the feedback!
Brobee
canadaman30
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Far from the City
Great video, would like to see what Challenger Slugs (dangerous game slug), or Score Slugs (thug slug) or Brenneke slugs would compare. Considering the Winchester slugs in your video, being a soft led and poor design, I'm betting results will be far different with better designed rifled slugs. I would also think some sabot loads like Winchester Partition would be deep penetrating.
- Location
- Burlington
Double post
- Location
- Burlington
This guy is soo busy he has to come online and tell people they are wasting his time. There's the door bud.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
-Last time I checked, Winchester Supreme Gold Partition Sabot slugs cost about $17 per 5 pack
-The respected RWS Rottweil Brenneke Classic slug were about $20 per 10 pack
(this pricing is five years out of date)
Good video, and a real eye opener. For blowing stuff up on the range, you can't go wrong with $15 for 15 slugs at Can Tire (they aren't pulling my info and address, so far), but the next time I'm back in the bush I'll do a little more research, with the help of your Youtube channel.
When it comes to dangerous game/defense loads, penetration is absolutely king. These slugs only offering 14" of penetration in gel would fail miserably when trying to bust the shoulder on an attacking grizzly.
+1. I knew slugs were hollow based, but didn't realize how thin walled the Foster slugs were. I am looking forward to more testing to see if any of the slugs actually provide the penetration required to be considered adequate for animal defense use.
OP, are you able to test any handloads with the Lee key drive slug or the Lyman slug that looks like a big .177 pellet?
Mark
Great stuff as always!
I stay away from those butter soft Foster slugs for anything serious, I've seen them over expand and ridiculously underpenetrate, or even flattening out and frisbee out the side of test media, many times.
IIRC, FWIW, in one of Jim Cirillo's books I believe he mentions incidences where Foster slugs failed badly during some of the many gunfights his Stakeout Unit was involved in, and you' have to think that a big bear or whatever is a bit more resilient than some skinny junkie from 45 years ago.
I stay away from those butter soft Foster slugs for anything serious, I've seen them over expand and ridiculously underpenetrate, or even flattening out and frisbee out the side of test media, many times.
IIRC, FWIW, in one of Jim Cirillo's books I believe he mentions incidences where Foster slugs failed badly during some of the many gunfights his Stakeout Unit was involved in, and you' have to think that a big bear or whatever is a bit more resilient than some skinny junkie from 45 years ago.
canadaman30
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Far from the City
I know, thats why I've been using Challengers for years. Recently I purchased a case(200) Score (thug slug) for well under $200.00. So we shall see how they perform in the field.
A big thank you for all this great testing and reporting Brobee! Your thread on shot gun world taught me a lot and really jump started my interest in terminal ballistics. For those who keep asking about Lee drive key slugs, they are good penetrators for a couple reasons and I hope Brobee tests them. I was following some more informal testing done by a blogger on another site regarding penetration tests. His handloads with Lee slugs penetrated 18" of 10% gel. Nearly as much as a 1 1/8 oz. BPI DGS slug which is a known deep penetrator. The drive key and round nose of the Lee slug resist the typical deformation common with foster slugs. Expansion reduces sectional density immensely which transfers energy but also acts like opening a parachute. In ballistic gel, the Lee slugs deform very little and just plow through even at high impact velocity.
That's why I was asking him to test them and offered to send him some. I've shot a few animals with the 1oz. Lee and haven't recoverd a slug yet...so I can't tell what they look like after impact!
I did a little digging on the author I mentioned and I was a bit off. He had set up a penetration test to try and mimic shooting game animals. It consisted of a box of bones, 18-19" of 10% gel and a block of dense ballistic wax. The DGS slug went through it all and rested 3.5" into the wax. The Lee slug did the same but buried itself 5" into the wax. That is a sizeable difference as the wax is very dense, stopping most of those loads in less than 10" without the bones and gel! His comment was that "The recovered slug looked almost good enough to be loaded and fired again."
