Using pull down powder for. 223

Good Grief!!! How did we ever survive in the 50's and 60's when all sorts of "unknown" surplus powders/ammunition were available??
We did just what the OP is doing....we experimented...carefully....until we had an idea where we were at.
We played with sphericals, extrudeds, flake, you name it. We pulled down ammo from so many different sources, always being careful
not to mix powders. Shot the bullets as practice/plinking ammo, and once we had loads developed, shot up the powder in everything from
the 222 to the 338 Win Mag.
Some of the posters on facebook sound like they are freshly weaned. Dave.
 
Will be out camping this weekend will be trying out rounds in my Ruger American and t97 wanted to go to range last night but didn't happen
 
Long live the bubble wrap generation!
Just let them remain in their parents dark basement and shut up online so the rest of us can enjoy more interesting lives.

During the recent dark days of the powder shortage I bought 4lbs of Win AAplus cheap. It was only made for a few years in the 80's as a shotgun powder and never did find any pistol data for it but did learn that the burn rate is very near Clays. 3.8gr works great in my SAM1911 45acp.

Good on the OP for studying and understanding the ins and outs of reloading and not just being another nervous paint-by-number type!
 
tjhaile said:
"The desire for safety stands in the way of every great and noble enterprise"

-Tacitus

The powder is probably not too far off from the 4895s based on how much is in the loaded rounds and comparing it to Hodgdon's data for 150 grain bullets in 7.62x54R. You are unlikely to blow anything up if you start low and work up using 4895 data for .223.

Reloadng is like cooking. You don't always need an exact recipe if you can apply general principles and guidelines.
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Starting with 3031 loading data is safer for those involved. When the first batches of Finn surplus arrived at International many years ago I bought a pallet of it. It was in short supply at the time for the SVT 38s and M91 variants that had arrived a few years earlier at $19.95 each. They were loaded with the same powder that the surplus 160gr Swede 6.5x55 cartridges came with. That powder was Nobel #44 which was interchangeable with 3031. The Russians had quite an influence on the Finns and likely most of the other nations in that region of the world. The Finns used captured Russian equipment and ammo regularly and likely on an interchangeable basis depending on what was on hand at the time. It only stands to reason the Finns would use a similar powder. They used Nobel #44 as it was as close to the powder used by the Russians as they could get.

I liked those Finn surplus 7.62x53R because they had non mercuric/non corrosive primers.

I'm not saying the OP will even get close to a dangerous load with 4895. I do however feel it's burn rate is to slow to start with. This is my reasoning.

The starting load for 3031 is 21 grains. The start load for 4895 is 23 grains. In a larger case and larger bore 2 grains doesn't mean much but in a small 223 case with a 224 bore, things add up pretty quickly.

Likely I'm being to cautious. Still, I have pulled thousands of rounds of 7.62x54R and repurposed the components. For extruded nitrocellulose powders I have always used 3031 data as a starting point.

When it comes to pulling components from midsize cartridge cases to use in small cartridge cases I prefer to err on the side of caution. There is enough difference between the two powders to warrant this IMHO.
 
Ganderite said:
H4831. Please chide him. I am tired of kids that never left the house without a full briefing and a string connecting their mittens.
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Nice, just lost a lot of respect for you buddy.

Sorry, I just don't see the point in trying some unknown powder when I can just go buy a pound or five of something with published data and find a nice load with it after 50 test rounds then repeat that load for years. My 223 varmint load shoots sub half moa in one of my rifles, took me trying two powders to find it. I know you have probably been loading for more years than I've been shooting but since you are probably retired and have all kinds of free time to experiment and pi$s around all day you're lucky, but between working shiftwork, having a wife and owning an acreage I don't have the luxury of spending a lot of time messing around, I go with what works and go buy more supplies when I'm running low.
I've also seen first hand what can happen when people reload carelessly, when I started into reloading I bought a cheap progressive loader, messed up and ended up turning a $1700 HK pistol into a lot more parts than it started out with so I never tell people to try something that isn't from a reputable source as I know what can happen when things go bad.

So go ahead and be a smartass and call me a child because I'm cautious and don't hand out careless advice. I'm actually over 40 years old and have been doing this for years but I would never give someone advice that could potentially put them at risk.
I don't see any reason to buy ammo for a rifle I don't have just to take it apart and try to reuse the components to save a few dollars, my time off is too valuable to spend the time it takes to do that when I can just go buy known, reliable, and replenishable supplies.
 
I understand your point of view.

The OP wants to experiment. Loading to him is a hobby - not just a means to ammo.

I assured him his plan made perfect sense, based on my experience.

The purpose of this forum is to share information - not phobias.
 
There is IMHO no risk in what I am doing, I know enough to be confident in what I'm doing, this makes me a lot less nervous then working up loads for my 357.. Because I'm usually end up above money max loads in modern manuals.. But we all know why that is.. Lol
 
Won't have results until Sunday, unfortunately since I'm camping can't see if it will cycle my Ar.. But will have a t97 with me different animal but will see if it cycles.. One thing I am expecting is this powder to be real dirty..
 
kevinm1980 said:
Won't have results until Sunday, unfortunately since I'm camping can't see if it will cycle my Ar.. But will have a t97 with me different animal but will see if it cycles.. One thing I am expecting is this powder to be real dirty..
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Why are you expecting it to be dirty???? It likely won't be any dirtier than any other extruded powder in its burn rate. It will certainly be dirtier than most Ball powders.
 
bearhunter said:
Starting with 3031 loading data is safer for those involved. When the first batches of Finn surplus arrived at International many years ago I bought a pallet of it. It was in short supply at the time for the SVT 38s and M91 variants that had arrived a few years earlier at $19.95 each. They were loaded with the same powder that the surplus 160gr Swede 6.5x55 cartridges came with. That powder was Nobel #44 which was interchangeable with 3031. The Russians had quite an influence on the Finns and likely most of the other nations in that region of the world. The Finns used captured Russian equipment and ammo regularly and likely on an interchangeable basis depending on what was on hand at the time. It only stands to reason the Finns would use a similar powder. They used Nobel #44 as it was as close to the powder used by the Russians as they could get.

I liked those Finn surplus 7.62x53R because they had non mercuric/non corrosive primers.

I'm not saying the OP will even get close to a dangerous load with 4895. I do however feel it's burn rate is to slow to start with. This is my reasoning.

The starting load for 3031 is 21 grains. The start load for 4895 is 23 grains. In a larger case and larger bore 2 grains doesn't mean much but in a small 223 case with a 224 bore, things add up pretty quickly.

Likely I'm being to cautious. Still, I have pulled thousands of rounds of 7.62x54R and repurposed the components. For extruded nitrocellulose powders I have always used 3031 data as a starting point.

When it comes to pulling components from midsize cartridge cases to use in small cartridge cases I prefer to err on the side of caution. There is enough difference between the two powders to warrant this IMHO.
Click to expand...

Seems reasonable to me; using data for the faster burn rate powder will be more conservative. I picked 4895 because my usual reference sources have data for it with 150 grain bullets, but not for 3031. The load of 49 grains of 3031 for a 150 grain bullet per COTW, suggests that 3031 and 4895 are fairly close in 7.62x54R, at least.

Ultimately, the actual powder will vary from canister grade and what powder an individual may choose as an analogue will vary, depending on what reference material he is using. That is why you want to start low on your powder charge.
 
So back from camping came back early due to a log rolling out of fire and giant hole in sleeping bag.. But did get a chance to try rounds in the t97, 22 grains cycled the action just fine work up the hottest one a made.. 25gr still no pressure signs.. Now going to load alot more ND go to the range and try in the Ar and see if I can find a reasonably accurate load
 
Glad it's working out, half the fun is figuring it out. At least the members here aren't a bunch of brain dead goofs like in the "reloading room". Do you have access to a chrony?
 
Ganderite said:
This video is all about developing a load using a powder lacking load data.

OP: Any results yet?
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Thanks for sharing the video. For me, the single most satisfying aspect of this sport has been handloading, but not the "Cookbook" kind, the kind that's described in that video. It has nothing to do with "making sense" to others, but with increasing our knowledge and in many cases ultimately saving money. I have shared many results on CGN over the years and been thanked for it.

A sticky on this subject would be a good thing. People with neither a chrony, nor free of bubblewrap could freely stick to their load books, which is not a bad thing.
 
Find at the range alot of ppl who reload are just a one or two caliber kind of person, then there is me and another guy pulling all the brass we can find out of the scrap buckets... Lol
 
kevinm1980 said:
Find at the range alot of ppl who reload are just a one or two caliber kind of person, then there is me and another guy pulling all the brass we can find out of the scrap buckets... Lol
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Sounds familiar...at last count, I had over 50 sets of dies in my stash. Many I do not have a rifle for at present, but at one time or other, I did, and I reloaded for them.
Some chamberings, I have more than one die set for, since I have more than 1 rifle in said chambering..It is a bit of an illness, lol. Dave.
 
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