Using Russian components to load for 303 Brit?

[TargetAcquired]

I don't shoot any x39: what to cans of ammo cost these days?

The first load costs more due to acquisition of brass, but when I amortised it out over the average lifespan of the brass I get (and since I started marrying brass to rifle and neck sizing only I am getting awesome case life) I am shooting fun loads for about $0.23/bang. I'm loading hard cast loads that I powder coat and get nice results from without leading. I wouldn't call them 'plinking' loads, they hit hard and I have a 600y target tha I shoot at with them. Can't make any good accuracy claims on that one, but I do hit it. It's a rifle from the 40s and I'm using irons, I don't know how factory ammo or fmj os going to make any real difference other than costing more.

I don't reload to save money, but a remarkable costs savings is the only reason I would consider the chore of breaking down x39s to make cartridges for my enfields.

 

[Hitzy]

How so? 7.62x39mm used for light loads at 25 cents a shot or 7.62x54R for full load shots at 40 cents a shot.

The last 880 round case I bought of x54 was $200, I get about 1.5-2lbs more powder out of that then I would out of 1200 rounds of x39. I get enough powder for 1100-1200 303 rounds out of that. Powder is around $35-$40/lb now which isn't cheap. I never got very good accuracy using 123gr x39 bullets but 150-180gr x54 have always been pretty good.
FMJ x39 commercial bullets are $20-$25 per 100, 174gr 303 FMJ are $35-$40 per 100.
Just better components breaking down the x54 for loading the 303.

 

[Fox]

I was not sure how close to a bad thing the flash over could be, I know it exists and is possible under 50% fill capacity and the powder from the x39 is close to that threshold, not scared, I just do not know what to look for and what to be concerned with.

I am going to a gun show this weekend, I will see if I can get a pack or two of cheap stuff and break it down and go from there.

I like having the case a little fuller, that is why I was suggesting bumping up the powder a little and just losing 1 or 2 rounds out of a pack of 20.

I have reloaded but it was a while ago when I was a teenager and it was using only published loads.

I have a 44 Webley, an 8x56R, 6.5x55mm and 303 Brit, I really need to get this reloading stuff sorted out again.

Thanks for the info, I was not taking anything harsh, I know tone does not translate well on a message board.

 

[Fox]

The last 880 round case I bought of x54 was $200, I get about 1.5-2lbs more powder out of that then I would out of 1200 rounds of x39. I get enough powder for 1100-1200 303 rounds out of that. Powder is around $35-$40/lb now which isn't cheap. I never got very good accuracy using 123gr x39 bullets but 150-180gr x54 have always been pretty good.
FMJ x39 commercial bullets are $20-$25 per 100, 174gr 303 FMJ are $35-$40 per 100.
Just better components breaking down the x54 for loading the 303.

I see where you are coming from, I guess I don't care too much about accuracy, just having fun and making things go boom , just not a big boom.

 

[supernova]

With the flashover concern, and I won't deny its a valid concern and worth asking questions, is that not a problem with very light charges of very slow powders in cases with generous capacity in relation to the charge creating disproportionate pressure spikes? I've used 10 grs of red dot under a Hornady 85 gr XTP pistol bullet with good results. A little pop and a little bullet flung across the range like an oversize .22lr. Fun for plinking at reactive targets like a red dot that crapped out after I lost the receipt. Red dot being a quick flake powder works well along with a bunch of similar powders for light plinking loads as CE Harris wrote a few great articles on. He even had recommendations for mid burners like H/IMR4895 light loads but not as light as pistol/shotgun powders. My point is I'm hoping someone has the full answer both for the OP and for guys like me that don't know the full story.

 

[Fox]

With the flashover concern, and I won't deny its a valid concern and worth asking questions, is that not a problem with very light charges of very slow powders in cases with generous capacity in relation to the charge creating disproportionate pressure spikes? I've used 10 grs of red dot under a Hornady 85 gr XTP pistol bullet with good results. A little pop and a little bullet flung across the range like an oversize .22lr. Fun for plinking at reactive targets like a red dot that crapped out after I lost the receipt. Red dot being a quick flake powder works well along with a bunch of similar powders for light plinking loads as CE Harris wrote a few great articles on. He even had recommendations for mid burners like H/IMR4895 light loads but not as light as pistol/shotgun powders. My point is I'm hoping someone has the full answer both for the OP and for guys like me that don't know the full story.

Never played with light loads, my brother is bugging me to start with trail boss and subsonic rifle loads but I have never done it. I wonder what the volume of those low weight loads are? Like I said, I was talking about this with a guy who reloads a lot but then the concern of flash over came up, I am not sure at what point this really becomes an issue, like I said, I do not know and I am interested to learn.

 

[TargetAcquired]

Never played with light loads, my brother is bugging me to start with trail boss and subsonic rifle loads but I have never done it. I wonder what the volume of those low weight loads are? Like I said, I was talking about this with a guy who reloads a lot but then the concern of flash over came up, I am not sure at what point this really becomes an issue, like I said, I do not know and I am interested to learn.

I have a 30-30 load that is just around 8.5gn of unique, and it's fun. Pound of powder goes a long way.

But I like my milsurps to kick me back.

 

[supernova]

Well trailboss won't be a concern. Its possibly the bulkiest powder available and has universal instructions more than load data. It is definitely safe as the workup starts with establishing where your bullet seats to in the case, filling the case to that mark with trailboss then weighing that charge and using that as your max load. Reduce by 30% and work up to your best accuracy. Loads are always very light, 70% case fill by weight or more and at low pressure. Thats what trailboss is specifically for. Light loads of pistol/shotgun powder are less bulky but there are plenty of well known, proven safe loads. If you're looking for good info on light loads, google "C.E. Harris light loads" and you should be able to find his articles that are packed with great info on light plinking loads all the way up to full power cast bullet loads for 600yd match shooting. Its a great read and a lot of fun to experiment with.

 

[plinker 777]

Has anyone used the full charge of Russian X54r powder and it's projectile in .303br brass? I realize it's an overcharge for .303 specs, but not by a lot...has anyone done it?

Also, which site sponsor has cheap .303 gas checked for sale!? Perhaps I should ask what defines "cheap"?

 

[jethunter]

Has anyone used the full charge of Russian X54r powder and it's projectile in .303br brass? I realize it's an overcharge for .303 specs, but not by a lot...has anyone done it?

Also, which site sponsor has cheap .303 gas checked for sale!? Perhaps I should ask what defines "cheap"?

Doesn't sound like good advice to me but i you think overcharging a 303 by 6-8 gr would be OK you should try it yourself.

 

[jethunter]

I found that my Mosin barrels copper foul fast and heavily from using the copper wash plated steel jacket ammo. So my first thought is to not use the surplus components for anything else. And in fact I'm shifting away from shooting the milsurp ammo as a result of this.

Mind you I've only used the one SPAM can of surplus. Ammo from other sources might not be as bad as the junk I've got. But it's worth watching to see how bad it is.

I don't know that any of the steel jacket copper wash bullets are any better. Scrubbing after every couple hundred rounds does seem to be required if you don't want heavy buildups of copper.

 

[Hitzy]

Has anyone used the full charge of Russian X54r powder and it's projectile in .303br brass? I realize it's an overcharge for .303 specs, but not by a lot...has anyone done it?

Also, which site sponsor has cheap .303 gas checked for sale!? Perhaps I should ask what defines "cheap"?

Even in a P14 you would be asking for trouble...in a No3 or No4 you might be looking for your fingers.
Most of the East Combloc x54 powder I used has been pretty close to IMR4895 burn rate.

 

[jethunter]

Even in a P14 you would be asking for trouble...in a No3 or No4 you might be looking for your fingers.
Most of the East Combloc x54 powder I used has been pretty close to IMR4895 burn rate.

I agree that a lot of combloc x54 powder I used has been close to 4895, but I also noticed that there is fair bit of variation in burn speed between lot numbers, more so than what we expect to see in powder made in the west.

 

[Fox]

I agree that a lot of combloc x54 powder I used has been close to 4895, but I also noticed that there is fair bit of variation in burn speed between lot numbers, more so than what we expect to see in powder made in the west.

Would this not just be a condition of powder availability during manufacture? This is what I meant by more variance than the x39 for powder burn speed but I guess if you buy a case out of the same lot and inspect the powder and weights you would be able to tell if you had any variation but you should not.

 

[Hitzy]

Would this not just be a condition of powder availability during manufacture? This is what I meant by more variance than the x39 for powder burn speed but I guess if you buy a case out of the same lot and inspect the powder and weights you would be able to tell if you had any variation but you should not.

That's why you start low and work up a load. A chrony is mandatory when trying to determine burn rate as well. I also always use mag primers with surplus (ball/flake) powders to get a more consistent and cleaner burn.

 

[jethunter]

Would this not just be a condition of powder availability during manufacture?

Yes, I expect that is exactly what it is. Even with our commercial loaded ammo here in the west there is variation in the powder recipe between batches or lots, dependant on what is available at the time.

This is what I meant by more variance than the x39 for powder burn speed but I guess if you buy a case out of the same lot and inspect the powder and weights you would be able to tell if you had any variation but you should not.

x39 powders have the same variance in burn speed for the same reason.

Within the same manufacturing lot# the powder will be identical - same charge weight, same powder. Different lot# may have different powders but within the same lot the powder should be the same, and that goes for military and commercial ammo both east and west.

 

[B]

Has anyone used the full charge of Russian X54r powder and it's projectile in .303br brass? I realize it's an overcharge for .303 specs, but not by a lot...has anyone done it?

I have only used a few different types of x54 but I haven't made it past 85% or so or the full charge without seeing sticky extraction.
I can live with a little less velocity, these days I am more interested in developing loads for hardcast gas checked bullets. I bought 1200 205grn from a guy off the forum. They are very nice, very well priced and hit hard despite their marginally lower velocity.

 

[Andy]

That's why you start low and work up a load. A chrony is mandatory when trying to determine burn rate as well. I also always use mag primers with surplus (ball/flake) powders to get a more consistent and cleaner burn.

It's about time someone mentioned a chrony. I bet no more than one person in 20 considering this owns one. I do, and have found most X39 powder to be near H335 in burn rate and most X54 to be slower - near H4895 in burn rate, as mentioned.

Almost no-one is interested in how to safely estimate a safe load using a chrony, but are happy to rely on notoriously unreliable "pressure signs" - a very bad idea IMO.

Knowing that people will do this anyways, the best advice I can give is to treat X39 powder like H4198, and for X54, use no more than Starting H4895 loads for the unknown powder, i.e. start below that by 4-5 grs and work up.

 

[B]

A chrony is a huge help for sure, probably the biggest. I settled on loads running about 150-200fps slower than comparable weights listed in my manuals. Sure you can go higher and I certainly have, but then again you can use known powders and reliable data to push your bullets to the (safe) maximum.

 

[jethunter]

I just expect that everyone would know about chronographs and don't expect to remind everyone every time... usually I don't remind people to use a press to hold the dies either.
A chronograph is required for any serious tinkering with powder and loads - but it won't help you determine a starting load. For that you need to use your head.