Value of Damascus barrel guns ?

[gerardjohnson]

I may be buying 2 shotguns with damascus barrels, one of which is a pecrussion muzzleloader marked Fenton Regent Street London, The other marked Ja, S, Harper. I haven't seen them yet, but both are reported to be damascus barreled and in excellent condition with large bores, guage unknown. I don't know how much to offer if I decide to buy, but want to offer a reasonable price. I do however, want to be able to sell them at a later date for at least as much as I pay for them. Can anyone give me a ballpark value?
Gerry

 

[vagrantviking]

They can be very beautiful pieces of steel to go along with the fine lines of classic shotguns. For collectable guns damascus is what you get with most shotguns of a certain age.

The value to a shooter is different because damascus means low pressure rounds. Personally I would only ever use black powder in a damascus barrel. I'm sure that there must be ways to load smokeless to safe levels but I wouldn't bother myself.

 

[mooncoon]

I think to a large extent you need to have a knowledgeable person inspect them and suggest what he/she would pay for them. Excellent condition can vary tremendously depending on who is saying it. To me it would imply the pattern is still bright and prominent on the barrels and that you have removed the locks and that they are shiny to the point of looking chrome plated on the inside. The percussion gun is a London gun which means it should be fairly well made although I don't think the maker is a big name maker. My guess is that in the usual good working condition but dark barrels and bores not too badly pitted, they are worth 3-400 each and the price goes up from there depending on how close to factory new they are.
You also need to drop a bore light down the barrels to check for pitting and look down the barrels in the case of the cartridge gun. Further you need to check for loose or separated ribs and bent barrels
In terms of resale value, I think most double guns are undervalued and are often a difficult resale in the sense that there is a limited market for them. I do shoot my damascus cartridge guns with light smokeless handloads and keep my pressures under about 7000 psi but that is an individual judgement call

Without pictures we are also guessing wildly and even with pictures it is a best guess from afar and for local prices.

Almost forgot; guns over 10 guage are worth significantly more but are relatively uncommon.

cheers mooncoon

 

[sail32]

I have heard of prople having damascus barrels re-proofed in England. However this
re-proofing, did not stop some of them from coming apart on firing. I would not fire a damascus barrel, I like my fingers, but as mooncoon says, it's a personal call.

 

[gerardjohnson]

I drove to Saint John yesterday and bought them. They aren't quite in what I would call excellent condition, but in quite good shape for their age. They appear to be complete, original (except for the coat of varnish on the muzzleloader) and in working order. There is what looks like silver on the forend and the guns are extensively engraved. Both are 12 ga.
They both have twist barrels. Are all twist barrels Damascus or, if not, what is the difference?

 

[tiriaq]

Back when these guns were being made, there were specific terms for each type of welded barrel. Methods involved everything from a simple straight longitudinal seam, to complex, sophisticated welded patterns using both iron and steel. Some of the most remarkable were forged by Zenobe Gramme of Liege, who would weld up barrels with lettering incorporated in the weld. I've seen photos of barrels with "Zenobe Gramme", "Prince Albert", "Remington" worked into the fabric of the barrel.
Nowadays, the term "damascus" is applied to most any spiral welded barrel.
If yours are marked "Fine Twist" or something similar, that's how the maker classed them.

 

[mooncoon]

They both have twist barrels. Are all twist barrels Damascus or, if not, what is the difference?

As an extension of what Tiriaq said, in the 1800s, the term twist was a bit counter intuitive. The pieces of iron were forge welded together into a block then drawn out into a strip referred to as a skelp. If the skelp was simply wrapped around a mandrel and forged into a tube, it was referred to as twist pattern and had the classic spiral pattern with various patterns within the spiral. It was considered to have been twisted around the mandrel.

For more expensive guns, the skelp was put in a jig and twisted much like you might twist a piece of string, then flattened into final flat skelp prior to welding into a tube in a spiral fashion. This gave the metal a sort of figure 8 pattern within the spiral that wraps around the barrel. The figure 8 style was referred to as damascus and both types came with qualifiers based on how the original skelp was formed. Stub twist or 3 iron damascus would be examples

Finally, in the late 1800s, some homogenous iron barrels were etched to create a damascus / twist pattern and these were labeled damascus pattern on the top rib. In spite of claims to the contrary, I am not convinced that damascus pattern barrels were all that common or perhaps they just did not survive as well as true damascus and twist ones. I have seen barrels with the label but far fewer than one would expect from the claims of some.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Steppenwolf]

Mooncoon, is there any validity to the old rule that a simple way to check for voids in the metal is to ring the barrel as you would a bell?

 

[North of 58]

Ringing the barrels is useful for determining whether the ribs are loose. I've never heard of it being used to detect voids in the metal.

 

[mooncoon]

As North said, ringing the barrels is to indicate a loose rib and it is important to hang the barrels on a string or similar so that your hands do not damp out the ringing. I am not sure how well the method works if the gap is only a short one in the mid length region. As long as they are not covered by the ribs, you can usually see gaps in the welds between wraps. Muzzles should also be over at least .016" and preferably in the .020 - .025" range on muzzle loaders. The one gun that I had burst a barrel on had a wall thickness of .010 maybe and had holes right through into the void space between ribs. That created a major problem because there was nowhere for the escaping gasses to go.

cheers mooncoon