Value of J Blanch & Son Damascus SXS?

d_jamont

New member
Rating - 90%
9   1   0
Hey folks,

I inherited a couple of old SXS and am looking to move them on. Any idea what something like this J Blanch & son SXS would be worth? Not looking to squeeze every penny out of it, just looking to understand a fair market value. There is a small mark/dent the left barrel near the muzzle and som surface pitting in the right barrel ahead of the chamber. (See pics)

Any ideas? I also have a J Manton SXS Damascus with a relief carved stock, but am sure it’s a wall hanger. I’ll post that separately.

Cheers,

Don
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0146.jpeg
    IMG_0146.jpeg
    161.7 KB · Views: 45
  • IMG_0135.jpeg
    IMG_0135.jpeg
    97 KB · Views: 45
  • IMG_0137.jpeg
    IMG_0137.jpeg
    185.9 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_0138.jpeg
    IMG_0138.jpeg
    86.2 KB · Views: 38
  • IMG_0140.jpeg
    IMG_0140.jpeg
    65.8 KB · Views: 38
  • IMG_0141.jpeg
    IMG_0141.jpeg
    60.1 KB · Views: 38
  • IMG_0143.jpeg
    IMG_0143.jpeg
    66.7 KB · Views: 38
  • IMG_0142.jpeg
    IMG_0142.jpeg
    72 KB · Views: 40
  • IMG_0144.jpeg
    IMG_0144.jpeg
    196.2 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_0150.jpeg
    IMG_0150.jpeg
    151.4 KB · Views: 46
Double Gun BBS would be an even better source of information on your Blanch shotgun, than Shotgunworld. Unfortunately, valuation in the US bears little to no relationship to the lower values in Canada.
To get a real valuation, the shotgun needs to be closely examined by a double gun expert, including measurement of barrel wall thickness.
 
Double Gun BBS would be an even better source of information on your Blanch shotgun, than Shotgunworld. Unfortunately, valuation in the US bears little to no relationship to the lower values in Canada.
To get a real valuation, the shotgun needs to be closely examined by a double gun expert, including measurement of barrel wall thickness.
Any recommendations for shotgun experts in the Ontario region?
 
That is a high grade gun. Pretty special.
When it comes to double guns, there are some extremely knowledgeable folks here on CGN. I expect they will see the thread and comment.
 
Good quality double. If chambers are still 2 1/2inch and haven't been lengthened to 2 3/4 inch( not recommended due to thin barrel walls) I would think $1000 or in the neighborhood. Small pits in bores are preferable to highly polished as that causes barrel walls to be too thin as well.
From what I've read the English consider .025 inches to be MINIMUM barrel wall thickness in quality guns.
 
There is definitely some interesting history with this gun. I would like to see more pictures, especially of the locks and the action bar. Proof marks of that period were pretty sparse, and don't tell much.

OK. The barrels started life on a pin-fire, we can presume for now one of John Blanch & Son's guns. The engraved lightning bolts on the top of the barrels at the breech are a good give-away, but look closely, and you will see iron squares inletted into the barrels where the pin-fire holes were. When the conversion was done and the barrels re-browned, it would have been invisible. Perhaps this angle makes it more visible:
aR8ykd6.jpg


The action itself appears to have been built as a centre-fire, and does not show obvious signs of conversion (though in the picture, I can almost see seams where additional metal might have been braised on the fences, before sculpting - more pictures needed). The cuts on the action bar to reduce weight are pretty characteristic of the work of Edwin C. Hodges, one of the best actioners of the period, and one who is known to have actioned guns for Blanch. So, quality all around. I'm assuming until told otherwise that Blanch's name is on the locks, which would suggest that someone, perhaps with a prized Blanch pin-fire, went back to the maker and asked for his barrels to be installed on a new central-fire gun (which may have re-used the locks from the pin-fire. "No problem," Blanch would have said, "Of course we can do that." Whatever the client wanted, he got. This is a gun that came from a skilled workman's bench, not a factory.

I can't quite make out if the action is a single-bite or a double-bite, which would help date the gun, further pictures of the action or barrel lumps would tell. There may also be what might look like random initials under the barrels, near the proofs. Being a Blanch gun, there may be the initials TP or JP, from the Portlock family of barrel makers, highly sought after. The action bar may carry the mark of the actioner as well, so any additional information on marks would be helpful.

Why would someone wish to have pin-fire barrels rebuilt into another gun? In the Victorian period, barrels were everything. Barrels which "shot hard" were treasured. They will be cylinder bore, as choke was yet to be invented, but the shooting qualities of a gun meant many were reluctant to part with them, even for the sake of moving to a new-fangled system like central-fire.

There is the slight possibility that the gun was re-built by another maker, especially if the locks carry another's name (or no name). Some gunmakers specialized in conversion work, usually saving as much as possible (barrels, locks, some furniture and sometimes the butt stock), but sometimes building a whole new gun around an old set of barrels (making conversions hard to spot).

Sadly a dented damascus barrel does not make for a shooter, even with black powder. This makes for a gun to be admired and talked about, but not taken to the field. While a shooter of damascus barrels myself, I would run away from any damascus-barrelled gun that looked like it had raised dents, so fixing it is really out of the question. In Canada, being a wall-hanger cuts the value quite a bit. To a collector of early central-fire guns, there is a limited demand, if you can find such a person. If the action turns out to have been re-worked from a pin-fire, someone like myself might be interested, no surprise there. Most wall-hangers are cheap guns, and sell cheaply. A high-quality wall-hanger is very difficult to price, because you have to find the person who really wants it just to admire it. It can be worth a few hundred bucks, and some patent actions can bring the price much higher -- but yours is not one of those. Unfortunately in Canada, quality and rarity aren't always part of the value calculation, and you have to be ready to wait for the right person to come along, who is ready to pay above the going rate for wall-hangers.

For those who might be interested, the firm of John Blanch and Son was one of the earliest proponents of the pin-fire system in Britain. With his son William, John built forward-underlever breech-loaders of the Lang type starting in 1856. Soon after, they may have been the first London gunmakers to market sporting guns with rearward-facing under-levers, a configuration better known as the lever-over-guard. The firm was at 29 Gracechurch Street, an address it occupied from 1826 to 1914. John Blanch had his residence in the fashionable Mayfair district. However, the 1861 census listed William still living at the Gracechurch Street address with his wife and three children; in most instances, a gunmaker's address appearing on the top rib of a gun was usually their home as well as their workshop. Blanch employed four men and one boy (apprentice) at the time, a reasonably typical operation for a successful gunmaker. In this modern age of factory production, it is worth remembering that back then, sporting gun makers were tiny operations, producing small numbers of guns to a limited and predominantly wealthy clientele. Sadly, the Luftwaffe erased all of Blanch's records.

I have Blanch gun no. 4696, a 12-bore pin-fire, which was probably made around 1864. Knowing what number is on your gun would also be helpful, as close to this would help date the gun.
 
Hey gents, thank you the quality replies.

The number on the underside of the stock is 4413 and matches the barrel and fore end numbers. I have tried to attach more photos to help with the identification, in clouding the small mark on the outside of the left barrel. I’ve also shown as many stamps as are on the action and barrels.
The chambers appear to be 2.5”, although it was a simple measure with a chopstick to the transition from chamber to barrel, it was clearly 2.5” both sides.

Thanks again in helping with this question!

Cheers,

Don
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0214.jpeg
    IMG_0214.jpeg
    117.1 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_0213.jpeg
    IMG_0213.jpeg
    111 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_0212.jpeg
    IMG_0212.jpeg
    128.2 KB · Views: 23
  • IMG_0211.jpeg
    IMG_0211.jpeg
    134.3 KB · Views: 18
  • IMG_0208.jpeg
    IMG_0208.jpeg
    178.5 KB · Views: 17
  • IMG_0209.jpeg
    IMG_0209.jpeg
    119.4 KB · Views: 17
  • IMG_0210.jpeg
    IMG_0210.jpeg
    164.4 KB · Views: 17
  • IMG_0207.jpeg
    IMG_0207.jpeg
    136.7 KB · Views: 17
  • IMG_0206.jpeg
    IMG_0206.jpeg
    111.5 KB · Views: 22
  • IMG_0216.jpeg
    IMG_0216.jpeg
    121 KB · Views: 24
Ah, thank you for posting more pictures. It is definitely a pin-fire converted to central-fire. The action is a single-bite, with the rising stud on the action bar, which is typical of pin-fires built on the design of Joseph Lang in the late 1850s to early 1860s; by 1864, most of this type were using double-bite actions, which are much stronger. From an engineering standpoint, a single attachment not far from the hinge is not very strong, but sufficient for the strength of powders of the day. The extractor would have been added at the time of the conversion, very cleverly done. Of course, doing so cut even more into the barrel steel, creating a potential weak point. You will also notice the angle of the breech face and action bar is a sharp 90 degrees, with no radius cut at the root to absorb the forces of recoil. This was sufficient in the day, but soon gunmakers started making that junction slightly curved, to avoid the actions cracking at that point, and all central-fire guns should have them.

One did not buy an early pin-fire for occasional shooting, so it would have seen 5,000 to 10,000 rounds or more each season, for several years until it was reworked into a stylish central-fire, after which it would have gone through similar amounts during its useful life, before being set aside. The only reason it does not look even more worn out is from the original build quality. Conversions have been through a lot, as the metal around the fences would have been softened, reworked and shaped and new parts braised in, and re-hardened and re-engraved.

The chamber sizes (width and length) were not standardized back then, and neither were the cartridges: while one cartridge might fit in one gun, it might not fit in another. An early central-fire would have been using early French Pottet/Schneider-designed cartridges, which started to be available in the late 1850s. Daw's cartridge came next, and by the late 1860s the Eley brothers were making central-fire cartridges, after settling a legal dispute with Daw. Early pin-fires had a shoulder instead of a forcing cone, though by the time the conversion was done, all guns had them, or were done in them.

All of which to say that a modern 2 1/2" cartridge may or may fit correctly as to width, and a loose-fitting cartridge risks adding pressure to a gun that has already been through a lot. I still think this gun is best admired, and not returned to the shooting field.
 
Ah, thank you for posting more pictures. It is definitely a pin-fire converted to central-fire. The action is a single-bite, with the rising stud on the action bar, which is typical of pin-fires built on the design of Joseph Lang in the late 1850s to early 1860s; by 1864, most of this type were using double-bite actions, which are much stronger. From an engineering standpoint, a single attachment not far from the hinge is not very strong, but sufficient for the strength of powders of the day. The extractor would have been added at the time of the conversion, very cleverly done. Of course, doing so cut even more into the barrel steel, creating a potential weak point. You will also notice the angle of the breech face and action bar is a sharp 90 degrees, with no radius cut at the root to absorb the forces of recoil. This was sufficient in the day, but soon gunmakers started making that junction slightly curved, to avoid the actions cracking at that point, and all central-fire guns should have them.

One did not buy an early pin-fire for occasional shooting, so it would have seen 5,000 to 10,000 rounds or more each season, for several years until it was reworked into a stylish central-fire, after which it would have gone through similar amounts during its useful life, before being set aside. The only reason it does not look even more worn out is from the original build quality. Conversions have been through a lot, as the metal around the fences would have been softened, reworked and shaped and new parts braised in, and re-hardened and re-engraved.

The chamber sizes (width and length) were not standardized back then, and neither were the cartridges: while one cartridge might fit in one gun, it might not fit in another. An early central-fire would have been using early French Pottet/Schneider-designed cartridges, which started to be available in the late 1850s. Daw's cartridge came next, and by the late 1860s the Eley brothers were making central-fire cartridges, after settling a legal dispute with Daw. Early pin-fires had a shoulder instead of a forcing cone, though by the time the conversion was done, all guns had them, or were done in them.

All of which to say that a modern 2 1/2" cartridge may or may fit correctly as to width, and a loose-fitting cartridge risks adding pressure to a gun that has already been through a lot. I still think this gun is best admired, and not returned to the shooting field.
Thanks pinfire! I am a lot smarter after this! Thank you!

Any ideas of value for a nice looking wall hanger?

Don
 
All of which to say that a modern 2 1/2" cartridge may or may fit correctly as to width, and a loose-fitting cartridge risks adding pressure to a gun that has already been through a lot. I still think this gun is best admired, and not returned to the shooting field.

Funny, I was just recently reading about shotgun headspace (in one of Gough Thomas' column) and the danger associated with excessive headspace.
 
Ah, thank you for posting more pictures. It is definitely a pin-fire converted to central-fire. The action is a single-bite, with the rising stud on the action bar, which is typical of pin-fires built on the design of Joseph Lang in the late 1850s to early 1860s; by 1864, most of this type were using double-bite actions, which are much stronger. From an engineering standpoint, a single attachment not far from the hinge is not very strong, but sufficient for the strength of powders of the day. The extractor would have been added at the time of the conversion, very cleverly done. Of course, doing so cut even more into the barrel steel, creating a potential weak point. You will also notice the angle of the breech face and action bar is a sharp 90 degrees, with no radius cut at the root to absorb the forces of recoil. This was sufficient in the day, but soon gunmakers started making that junction slightly curved, to avoid the actions cracking at that point, and all central-fire guns should have them.

One did not buy an early pin-fire for occasional shooting, so it would have seen 5,000 to 10,000 rounds or more each season, for several years until it was reworked into a stylish central-fire, after which it would have gone through similar amounts during its useful life, before being set aside. The only reason it does not look even more worn out is from the original build quality. Conversions have been through a lot, as the metal around the fences would have been softened, reworked and shaped and new parts braised in, and re-hardened and re-engraved.

The chamber sizes (width and length) were not standardized back then, and neither were the cartridges: while one cartridge might fit in one gun, it might not fit in another. An early central-fire would have been using early French Pottet/Schneider-designed cartridges, which started to be available in the late 1850s. Daw's cartridge came next, and by the late 1860s the Eley brothers were making central-fire cartridges, after settling a legal dispute with Daw. Early pin-fires had a shoulder instead of a forcing cone, though by the time the conversion was done, all guns had them, or were done in them.

All of which to say that a modern 2 1/2" cartridge may or may fit correctly as to width, and a loose-fitting cartridge risks adding pressure to a gun that has already been through a lot. I still think this gun is best admired, and not returned to the shooting field.
Thank you for an excellent Cole's Notes version.
Very well put.
 
Back
Top Bottom