Value of No4Mk2 RAF 53 Enfield. Unissued/unfired
- Thread starter SwifTst
- Start date
- Location
- Western Manitoba
You would have a long uphill climb to prove to me your claim that it is an "unissued" and "un-fired" No. 4 rifle. If you could do so, I would expect it to sell north of $C 2,000.00
Well she still has packing grease in the bore and the numbers apparently are of rifles that were built as a make work project in 53. Also it belonged to a legend in the gun community who passed away. He owned it for years and believed it was unissued and unfired. And so do those closest to him. Therefore, along with my independent research has shown, plus that tells me she’s as she’s advertised.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
So, assuming that you truly have one of the so-called "Irish Contact" rifles, except not in the brown wax paper wrapping, you still have to convince a buyer about what you claim it to be - the "for sale" section is full of "my grandpa's war rifle" or "my grandpa said it was" and so on. You could very well have a $C 2,000 plus rifle - have to market it appropriately. FYI - takes me two minutes to set up and fill a bore with "packing grease" - to a skeptical buyer like me, says that you have never had the bore examined closely to make your claim that it is "un-fired"- how could you, if the grease has not been cleaned out?
It was made alongside those Irish contract rifles but for the RAF.
I’m not even leaning towards selling it in all honesty. I was just curious. I trust the source and if I do decide to sell it in the future, it will be advertised as unissued and unfired. As it was the original owner that took it out of the wax. I would provide all the pictures necessary and would also let the individual inspect the rifle all they want if possible. If that isn’t enough, don’t buy it. But if one day I do decide to sell it, it will be sold as the title of this thread states.
I’m not even leaning towards selling it in all honesty. I was just curious. I trust the source and if I do decide to sell it in the future, it will be advertised as unissued and unfired. As it was the original owner that took it out of the wax. I would provide all the pictures necessary and would also let the individual inspect the rifle all they want if possible. If that isn’t enough, don’t buy it. But if one day I do decide to sell it, it will be sold as the title of this thread states.
Just a question, is there a special serial number range for "RAF" No4 MkII or any other No 4 series rifles?
I've seen No1 MkIII rifles with RAF stamps on the brass butt disc, but nothing verifiable on No 4 rifles.
There was a fellow at the Calgary gun show, about a decade back, who had a half dozen No 4 rifles with "RCAF" stamped on the right side of the butt, appx centered. The letters weren't straight and he had filled them with white out. He was asking about a third more for them than a No4 at that time was selling for. He went home with all of them. I saw a couple more, likely from the same batch, a couple of years later at the Cranbrook and Chilliwack shows.
Rumor was the RAF and RCAF didn't stamp any of the No4 rifles. I've always steered away from rifles with such marks when I see them. Maybe I've made a mistake???
Yes the serial number is slightly different from the Irish contract rifles. The first letter anyways. And, this rifle was made is 55 not 53, that’s my bad. The serial number starts with UF 55. A and then 5 digits. Whereas the Irish contract rifles have a letter other than A before those same 5 digits. If I’m remembering correctly. It was a long time ago I researched into the markings. I went through it all with an Enfield expert at the time. It seems this rifle was built, and then stored away for decades.
I’m not comfortable posting up the exact serial numbers here, but if there are any Enfield gurus here that want to PM me I’ll send along the numbers. Actually all markings and pictures to email.
I’m not comfortable posting up the exact serial numbers here, but if there are any Enfield gurus here that want to PM me I’ll send along the numbers. Actually all markings and pictures to email.
It might actually be that it’s something other than UF that makes it differ from the Irish co tract rifles. I can’t remember.
Around 1954, the numbering system changed to the form "UF A###xx", which is the version still used today for the SA80. The 1950s "UF A ######" rifles are built to a better finish compared to most of the "PFs".
UF rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in storage until they were sold off as surplus.
UF rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in storage until they were sold off as surplus.
These rifles came at a time when past decisions to make more updated rifles (WWII era reach) were well into production. Suddenly the world had tons of surplus,
new calibers, and new enemies. Militaries placed these in storage or sold off to the colonies, the SLR L1A1 began to enter into service in 1954.
You know when one considers that these were priced @ $265 each in the early '90s and you could get consecutive serial numbers in qty's of 10 or more (still I'm the wrap).
It’s always been controversial when some buyers/collectors unwrap these and clean them for the range, it’s their choice (albeit unfortunate for the hardcore collector).
Still it's nice to see NOS surplus.
As for pricing, In the wrap over $2400 c/w matching bayonet (in the wrap), sling/oil bottle/pull through (in a plastic bag). Out of the wrap, around $1800 - $2000.
new calibers, and new enemies. Militaries placed these in storage or sold off to the colonies, the SLR L1A1 began to enter into service in 1954.
You know when one considers that these were priced @ $265 each in the early '90s and you could get consecutive serial numbers in qty's of 10 or more (still I'm the wrap).
It’s always been controversial when some buyers/collectors unwrap these and clean them for the range, it’s their choice (albeit unfortunate for the hardcore collector).
Still it's nice to see NOS surplus.
As for pricing, In the wrap over $2400 c/w matching bayonet (in the wrap), sling/oil bottle/pull through (in a plastic bag). Out of the wrap, around $1800 - $2000.
Thank you very much for the insight there. Yeah I really have no plans to sell this rifle. It really is beautiful. I was back and forth on whether or not to even shoot it.. half my buddies saying go ahead and see what a new Enfield barrel is capable of. The other half saying absolutely not keep it pristine. Kind of like a devil on one shoulder and demon on the other lol.
I’ve decided not to shoot it for the time being. I have a couple really expensive firearms in my collection. But this old girl is probably my most valued.
Cheers, thanks again
On a side note but interesting.
Manufacturing Factories
UF - UK, Fazerkly
US - UK, Sterling
UB - UK, BSA
UE - UK, Enfield
UN - UK, Nottingham
BL - Belgium, Liege (Browning L9A1 AKA High Power)
And the PF serial number ranges of rifles sold to other not UK companies and countries.. So keep your eyes open Hong Kong order 11 rifles
This comes from plonker on gunboards
Note: incomplete list..
PF301548-PF304047 Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
PF309348-PF359347 Irish Republic
PF359748-PF359817 Zambia
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore
PF359953-PF360052 Jamaica
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad
PF360203-PF360238 St. Vincent
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts
PF360259-PF360459 War Office
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda
PF361160-PF361259 Parker Hale
PF361260-PF401086 Burma
PF401087-PF401459 Allocated for T conversion
PF404157-PF404206 Parker Hale
PF405393-PF405412 St. Vincent
PF405513-PF405712 Admiralty contract
PF405813-PF405848 Fulton
PF407649-PF407648 Trinidad
PF407649-PF407728 Zanzibar
PF411229-PF411264 Fulton
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong
Some of these contracts were not delivered. A case in point being the "Irish Contract". Daft spams pay a premium for these because they think they're getting a piece of Oirish history. In fact most of the rifles never left UK warehouse until they were sold as surplus.
In 1954, the numbering system changed to the form "UF A###xx", which is the version still used today for the SA80. The 1950s "UF A ######" rifles are built to a better finish compared to most of the "PFs". These rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in store until they were sold off.
Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley
No 4 Mk II Production Serial Numbers
Looking at the large number of late Mk1s/early Mk2s coming out of South Africa with govt property stamps on them, perhaps we can pencil in PF 100000 as the first Mk2, and PF 100000 to - say - PF 120000 as "South Africa"......?
PF 100000 PF 120000 South Africa?
PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.
PF 218000 PF 219799 N/K 1800
PF 219799 PF 275947 N/K 56,148
PF 225948 PF 250947 N/K 25,000
Circa 1951/52
PF 250948 PF 301547 British Army 50,600
PF 301548 PF 304047 Sudanese Order 2499
PF 304048 PF 309347 N/K 5300
PF 309348 PF 359347 Irish Republic 49,999?
PF 359348 PF 359747 N/K 400
PF 359748 PF 359817 Zambia 469
PF 359818 PF 359852 Singapore 34
PF 359953 PF 360052 Kingston 99
PF 360053 PF 360202 Trinidad 149
PF 360203 PF 360238 St Vincent 35
PF 360239 PF 360258 St Kitts 19
PF 360259 PF 360459 War Office? 200
(21 missing numbers)
PF 360480 PF 361159 Uganda 679
PF 361160 PF 361259 Parker Hale 99
PF 361028 10/53
PF 361280 PF 401086 Burma 39,806
PF 401087 PF 401495 No 4 (T) Rifles ? 408
PF 401496 PF 404156 N/K 2661
PF 401157 PF 404206 Parker Hale 3049
PF 404207 PF 405392 N/K 1186
PF 405393 PF 405412 St Vincent 19
Circa 1954
PF 405413 PF 405512 N/K 100
PF 405513 PF 405712 Admiralty 100
PF 405713 PF 405812 N/K 100
PF 405813 PF 405848 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 405849 PF 407448 N/K 1600
PF 406534 10/49
PF 407449 PF 407648 Trinidad 199
PF 407649 PF 407728 Zanzibar 79
PF 407729 PF 411228 N/K 3500
PF 411229 PF 411264 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 411265 PF 411481 Kenya 216
PF 411482 PF 411471 ? Hong Kong 11
(Confusion of batch No’s!)
PF 411472 PF 412789 N/K 1318
1951 Special Order
PP1 PP43 Parker Hale
PP44 PP47 To an unknown UK source
Manufacturing Factories
UF - UK, Fazerkly
US - UK, Sterling
UB - UK, BSA
UE - UK, Enfield
UN - UK, Nottingham
BL - Belgium, Liege (Browning L9A1 AKA High Power)
And the PF serial number ranges of rifles sold to other not UK companies and countries.. So keep your eyes open Hong Kong order 11 rifles
This comes from plonker on gunboards
Note: incomplete list..
PF301548-PF304047 Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
PF309348-PF359347 Irish Republic
PF359748-PF359817 Zambia
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore
PF359953-PF360052 Jamaica
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad
PF360203-PF360238 St. Vincent
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts
PF360259-PF360459 War Office
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda
PF361160-PF361259 Parker Hale
PF361260-PF401086 Burma
PF401087-PF401459 Allocated for T conversion
PF404157-PF404206 Parker Hale
PF405393-PF405412 St. Vincent
PF405513-PF405712 Admiralty contract
PF405813-PF405848 Fulton
PF407649-PF407648 Trinidad
PF407649-PF407728 Zanzibar
PF411229-PF411264 Fulton
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong
Some of these contracts were not delivered. A case in point being the "Irish Contract". Daft spams pay a premium for these because they think they're getting a piece of Oirish history. In fact most of the rifles never left UK warehouse until they were sold as surplus.
In 1954, the numbering system changed to the form "UF A###xx", which is the version still used today for the SA80. The 1950s "UF A ######" rifles are built to a better finish compared to most of the "PFs". These rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in store until they were sold off.
Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley
No 4 Mk II Production Serial Numbers
Looking at the large number of late Mk1s/early Mk2s coming out of South Africa with govt property stamps on them, perhaps we can pencil in PF 100000 as the first Mk2, and PF 100000 to - say - PF 120000 as "South Africa"......?
PF 100000 PF 120000 South Africa?
PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.
PF 218000 PF 219799 N/K 1800
PF 219799 PF 275947 N/K 56,148
PF 225948 PF 250947 N/K 25,000
Circa 1951/52
PF 250948 PF 301547 British Army 50,600
PF 301548 PF 304047 Sudanese Order 2499
PF 304048 PF 309347 N/K 5300
PF 309348 PF 359347 Irish Republic 49,999?
PF 359348 PF 359747 N/K 400
PF 359748 PF 359817 Zambia 469
PF 359818 PF 359852 Singapore 34
PF 359953 PF 360052 Kingston 99
PF 360053 PF 360202 Trinidad 149
PF 360203 PF 360238 St Vincent 35
PF 360239 PF 360258 St Kitts 19
PF 360259 PF 360459 War Office? 200
(21 missing numbers)
PF 360480 PF 361159 Uganda 679
PF 361160 PF 361259 Parker Hale 99
PF 361028 10/53
PF 361280 PF 401086 Burma 39,806
PF 401087 PF 401495 No 4 (T) Rifles ? 408
PF 401496 PF 404156 N/K 2661
PF 401157 PF 404206 Parker Hale 3049
PF 404207 PF 405392 N/K 1186
PF 405393 PF 405412 St Vincent 19
Circa 1954
PF 405413 PF 405512 N/K 100
PF 405513 PF 405712 Admiralty 100
PF 405713 PF 405812 N/K 100
PF 405813 PF 405848 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 405849 PF 407448 N/K 1600
PF 406534 10/49
PF 407449 PF 407648 Trinidad 199
PF 407649 PF 407728 Zanzibar 79
PF 407729 PF 411228 N/K 3500
PF 411229 PF 411264 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 411265 PF 411481 Kenya 216
PF 411482 PF 411471 ? Hong Kong 11
(Confusion of batch No’s!)
PF 411472 PF 412789 N/K 1318
1951 Special Order
PP1 PP43 Parker Hale
PP44 PP47 To an unknown UK source
somebody has to say it:
�� alright, what uploader is everyone using these days? I’ll snap a bunch and upload
GunNutz Team Membership gives you direct upload!
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Worth every penny and then some.
5. Upload of picture attachments. Ability to directly attach pictures to posts without using an external picture hosting service. Storage size: 18MB ( about 120 large pictures);
- Location
- Western Manitoba
So, perhaps a coincidence? I have what is left of a M1917 stock - has been sawed off, etc. but stampings remain fairly clear on the butt:
On left side of butt stock, RCAF stamp with arrow above, then 7B 355. No "dash" between the "B" and the "3" like in Post #15 above. Also RCAF and number / letter stampings not neatly in a row like Post #15.
On right side is fairly clear "C around Broad Arrow". Stock is definitely for an M1917, not a P14. From this stock, I took it as evidence that M1917's were used, probably by guards, at RCAF bases in Canada. Post #15 above also suggests that No. 4's were also used.
On left side of butt stock, RCAF stamp with arrow above, then 7B 355. No "dash" between the "B" and the "3" like in Post #15 above. Also RCAF and number / letter stampings not neatly in a row like Post #15.
On right side is fairly clear "C around Broad Arrow". Stock is definitely for an M1917, not a P14. From this stock, I took it as evidence that M1917's were used, probably by guards, at RCAF bases in Canada. Post #15 above also suggests that No. 4's were also used.
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