Vanguard Casing Failures

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sobo4303

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I have two Weatherby Vanguards, both purchased about a year ago. I am experiencing unique casing failures in both.

The first was a Vanguard in 243. The casing showed a protruding ring about a 1/4" from the case head. With your fingernail, you could definitely feel the "bump" of the ring with your fingernail. Two casings split circumferentially at that spot. I headspaced the bolt and it closed on a nogo gauge but not a field gauge. I figured it was a headspace issue.

The second is my vanguard carbine in .308. Up till today, the thing shot beautifully, no issues. I was shooting factory Winchester ammo and bazinga, the ring appeared on those cases, very similar to the 243, except this time, the bolt does not close on the nogo.

What the hell? This same failure occurring about 1.5 years after owning the rifles? I do not believe in coincidence. I do reload, and do not load at or over the maximum published data in the Nosler or Hornady manuals.

Is there an issue with the Vanguards? Has anyone else noticed this issue?
 
I would stop shooting the rifles for the time being. Save all the cases. I would contact Weatherby with the issue, be sure to have the serial numbers close by. I would also contact Winchester with the lot numbers of the ammo.

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Headspace is just a measurement, it may be correct but there are other issues. My concern at this time is that you are using both factory ammo and a factory rifle, and having problems. The case has a relatively thick base but thin walls. The separations you describe typically occur forward of the thick part of the case.

What can happen is that the barrel is too short, the threaded shank is not long enough. Instead of the barrel walls containing the case, there is no wall. This is a tiny mount to measure, but very important. Headspace still reads good because that is in a totally different place.

~~~

If the ammo is reloaded or the rifle barrel or action has been customized then please let us know, the fix may be very simple. In the mean time contact the factories with the info.
 
If you were using reloads I would suggest that you might be over sizing and pushing the shoulders back far enough to be creating something similar to excess headspace.

That you are having issues with factor ammo is quite worrying and cause to contact Weatherby or have a gunsmith take a close look.
 
You sure you are sizing your cases correctly? How do you adjust your dies?

I put mine down tight to the shellholder and then back off 1/8 turn at a time trying to chamber the case each time. When pushing the bolt handle down goes from impossible to being slightly tight, to loose you know you are there. Then try another case just to be sure. (see your die manual for a better explanation than I can give)

vagrantviking - I don't see where he said he was using factory ammo... maybe I missed it.
 
This is the first I have heard of these issues with Wby Vanguard.
KI have no explanation to your troubles, but would be interested to see a picture of the failures.
I would hope the people at Wby will be forthcoming in getting your guns figured out and repaired/replaced worse care scenario.
Tight Groups,
Rob
 
The actual case separations would easily be explained by incorrect head space, as closing on the no go gauge indicates. As for the so called ring on the cases out of the second rifle, a picture would be great, as I have heard several similar complaints that turned out to be nothing worth worrying about.
 
Thanks all...
Just to clarify, the 308, is the carbine and that is the one which is now developing the rings.

Picture001-13.jpg


Picture002-13.jpg


Winchester SuperX 150 gr always shot pretty decent in this rifle. The bolt on this rifle does NOT close on the nogo. This is the first time I noticed on this rifle. I thought it might have been the ammo, so I introduced another box. Same thing. With the 243, it has started to actually split the casings and that one now closes on the nogo. Since it is now my son's...we are not shooting it until a gunsmith looks at. However, with my 308, I am really stunned. The ammo was straight out of the box.

I may be on the market for a new carbine! Maybe Savage or the Ruger?
 
Excess headspacing issues usually result in (well, okay, always eventually result in) the case stretching and the appearance of a thin band of brass just above the case head which produces a dimple inside the case and not a bulge on the outside. Your pictures look like your brass is actually expanded for most/all of it's entire length, which could suggest higher pressures and difficult extraction? Hard to tell by the pictures. Perhaps measure the diameter of your cases at several points along their length on factory, fully sized new, and once fired cases and see how much the case diameter grows at various places upon firing them. Having said this, the cases in your picture do appear to have the tell tale beginnings of a case head separation condition. Try the bent paper clip check along the inside wall of the case to see if there is a 'ring' near the case head caused by thinning case material.

Good advice is given above to not fire the gun until a gunsmith has had a look at it and your fired brass. Make sure to explain what you are doing with your reloads to the gunsmith as well. At that point you will know whether the guns are at issue or not and whether to involve the manufacturer. Just my 2 cents.

Stay safe.
 
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I think if you examine the cases with the splits, you will see that they are splitting just above where the visible pressure ring [that is normal] appears on a once fired case.
I am thinking that the split cases are because of oversizing the brass [pushing the shoulder back just a little too far.
The pressure rings I see in your pictures do not seem abnormal.
While a bolt that will close on a no-go, but not a field gauge has a bit of excess headspace, correctly sized brass for this chamber will not split [or separate]
Show us a "split" case. Then we can better identify the problem.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
case separation

First several questions;

Do you always full length size when you reload, bump the shellholder against the die?
Is the photo of case from carbine a new lot of factory loads?
Do you reload for the carbine as well (unclear in op)?
Have you miked the case head and bulge diameters?
Were these bulges not showing up before in cabine?

I had the same problem with 243 when first started reloading, max chamber, min die. Back your die out 1 full turn from contact with shellholder size a case, probably won't chamber. If it does, back out another 1/2 turn and try again. Now turn die in 1/16 turn at a time, until case just chambers with resistance on the down turn of the bolt. If resistance is too great for your liking tweek die down just a hair so you can still feel resistance but light. You have now set your die for 0 head space and your brass will last a long time.
The bulge is likely a combination of min web dia on the brass and max chamber dia in rifle. (Ruger used to be famous for oversize chambers back in the 70's and 80's) If the rifle checks good as far as barrel extension (as suggested above) then your best bet is to buy a neck sizer die so you don't work the web area too much set up as described above and you should experience no more problems.
I have seen the web bulge many, many times and assuming the rifle is put together properly there is nothing short of rechambering you can do except as I have suggested above. I have found big differences in different makes or even lots of brass as far as web dia goes and even as far as headspace goes.
Factory loads are supposed to meet SAAMI specs but I have found most are short in the headspace. This is so the shell will chamber in a min or match chamber. Rifle manufacturers do the opposite for the same reason, wouldn't want to have a rifle out there that won't chamber brand X ammo, bad for image. And brand X wouldn't want to get reputation that their ammo won't chamber. And so we get bulges, more with some brand of brass than others.

Douglas
 
am i batty or what.

i have never had a casing not chamber due to the settings of a die.
whats the point of fire forming if every time you say you have to touch the shoulder which i never do.

im wondering about your dies. are they those same base ones that make casings smaller.. forget the name

almost seems like you have a big chamber or something weird in that aspect due to factory ammo bulging like that.
 
The casings with the splits (on the 243) were mostly Federal and Winchester factory. Not reloaded. Very few reloads were in the 243.

The pictures shown are strictly factory on the 308. That rifle mostly sees the Remington cheap stuff, I have a bazillion cases to demonstrate that, but not one of them have that stretch mark. Which got me thinking as to whether the problem is indeed the ammo. In particular, perhaps an undersized case. c-fbmi has a really good point which I am going to explore further. I will head out to range tomorrow or Wednesday and shoot some other ammo brand and a few of my M14 loads and post the results.

Thanks all
 
tylerjwitty

Your youth and inexperience are showing, perhaps you should listen and learn instead of posting you ignorance for all to witness.
No offence intended.

QUOTE
'Tis better to keep ones mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt" William Shakespeare
 
Have you measured the diameter of the 'bulge'?

Often brass is manufactured under size and when fired in a correctly sized chamber dimension a bulge will appear as pictured.

Lets have some diameter measurements... A fired case measuring .470" - .471" is perfectly normal and will look quite bulged if it measures .466" - .467" before firing. I have seen Winchester brass as small as .465".
 
can you slice your cases open and post pictures? I'd be interested in seeing how badly the area in the bulge is thinning.

As well, take a micrometer to the casings, both before and after firing. It could be a combination of small issues.
 
c-fbmi said:
....I have seen the web bulge many, many times and assuming the rifle is put together properly there is nothing short of rechambering you can do except as I have suggested above. I have found big differences in different makes or even lots of brass as far as web dia goes and even as far as headspace goes.
Factory loads are supposed to meet SAAMI specs but I have found most are short in the headspace. This is so the shell will chamber in a min or match chamber. Rifle manufacturers do the opposite for the same reason, wouldn't want to have a rifle out there that won't chamber brand X ammo, bad for image. And brand X wouldn't want to get reputation that their ammo won't chamber. And so we get bulges, more with some brand of brass than others.

Douglas
Click to expand...

guntech said:
Have you measured the diameter of the 'bulge'?

Often brass is manufactured under size and when fired in a correctly sized chamber dimension a bulge will appear as pictured.

Lets have some diameter measurements... A fired case measuring .470" - .471" is perfectly normal and will look quite bulged if it measures .466" - .467" before firing. I have seen Winchester brass as small as .465".
Click to expand...

Douglas and Dennis have it right. This is exactly what is going on here, and is why only some of the brass is showing a bulge. If it was an oversize chamber, all the brass should show the bulge.

Ted
 
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