Varget inconsistency

Obtunded

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I have always bought large quantities of powder and I usually tweak for each batch, but my latest batch of Varget is really wonky.

I assumed it was just the new barrel, but I loaded for one of my other 6BR's and I found that I had to go a full 1.2 grains more to maintain 2875fps. I've heard similar stories where lots of guys using way more powder than "normal" with their latest batches of Varget. What has your expereince been?
 
Doesn't surprise me. Varget and all other powders have roots in military applications. We just get a 'few' pounds to play with.

The Varget formulations/speed has also changed dramatically from when it was first released. The performance of the orig batch and 155gr bullets was 3000fps in a 308. It got ALOT of attention and could be achieved by many shooters.

Look at todays load manuals and this same combo is quite a bit slower.

There can be some big difference from lot to lot.

Jerry
 
Varget's still my favourite, but then I've never experienced that much variance (though I've read about it). 1.2grains, geez...
 
If you are not happy with Varget why not try TAC or EXTERMINATOR for your .223 or 308 application. I don't shoot over a chrony but the little hole 5 shot group puts a little grin on.
 
Newer lots of Varget have been a bit slower.

Personally, I prefer a slightly slower powder. I find that slower powders allow you to stoke it a little higher without undue pressure. (IMR 4064 is excellent but you can definitely see pressure signs sooner than with Varget.) My Palma load uses 47 grains of Varget behind a 155 Nosler out of Winchester case. Primers are nice and round and the brass seems to like this load.
 
As Obtunded knows I too was having issues trying to get Lapua bullets up to speed with a new batch of Varget but with miserable results. After switching to Sierra bullets my velocities went up to where they should be with much lower amounts of powder than I was putting behind the Lapua's.

What baffles me about that though is the fact that the Lapua bullets are consistently .0005 smaller in diameter than the Sierra MK's. I would assume being a slight bit smaller that they would be easier to push through the barrel resulting in higher velocities.
 
Always work up from starting load when a change of ANY component is made especially if a new lot number. There will always be variance.

I would PREFER a slower lot of Varget as this will allow for higher load density and possibly faster velocity. Maybe the formulation is going back to the good old days.

Smaller bullets may not shoot well because there is not enough bullet being gripped by the barrel.

Slower velocity because there is increased blow by which can also damage the bullet causing inaccuracy.

Jerry
 
The situation could be made worse by the bullet being a boattail. Flatbase bullets can upset/obturate more effectively. I very much like 154 Scenars, because of the edge they have over bullets which are not VLD. But in some rifles they simply don't shoot as well.
 
I have been involved with powder R & D. The formulations for each powder not only include the chemical content, but also the deterrent coating, how the powder is extruded and cut, how long it is tumbled (with graphite) and the water content.

Water content slows the power down. It is a big variable over time (fresh vs. old powder.)

Making a batch of powder is much like baking a cake with a recipe. A pinch of this, a dash of that, stir for so long, etc. and no two batches are exactly the same.

When a commercial buyer (military or ammo company) buys a powder, it buys from a longer list of powders than available to reloaders as “canister” powders. I would say the list of powders each company makes is about 4 times as many as they sell to reloaders. There are a lot more fine steps in powder speeds. This is why you should not open a commercial or military case and assume you can tell what is in it. Even if it is a powder you know, like 4895, the commercial grade 4895 can be a lot faster or slower than the canister grade powder.

Each commercial purchase comes with a thick set of test documentation, giving the user an idea as to how this batch compares to other batches, and then he develops his own loads.

If a batch is close to the specs of the cannister lot, then it gets tweaked to be sold as cannister powder (retail). Tweaking is accomplished by blending some lots (a little fast is blended with a lot that is a bit slow) and by adjusting the water content.

The problem with powder is the water. The power dries out. Leaving it in the powder thrower for a week will speed it up. Usually when reloaders complain that a lot of new powder is ‘slow” what they really mean is that their old lot was faster. Yes, it was, because it dried out. The only thing we can do is avoid leaving powder in the thrower, and make sure the powder is stored in a sealed container.

If you buy powder in an 8 pound jug, decant it into 8 one pound plastic bottles. These small ones remains sealed until used. If you keep using a big jug, the increasing airspace in the jug dries out the powder.

I buy powder in 20 kilo (44 pound) barrels. It gets decanted into 4 liter window washer fluid jugs and 2 liter plastic juice bottles. They are labeled with a black felt pen, so there is no danger of forgetting what is what. In this way powder holds its speed until used. Some barrels of powder are used in a week. I have some that must be 5 years old by now.

Most ammo companies sell their commercial powders using numeric names that relate to the powder speed, so you can get an idea of speed by the number. E.g. N135, n140, n150, N160, N165

The old IMR numbers (4198, 4756, 30301, 4895, 4350, and 4831) come from a different background. When you work in R & D you are issued a notebook, quite similar to the military message notebook. Every project you work on is assigned a project number and the all your notes note the project number. The idea of the notes is to be able to later find out what worked and what did not. Sometimes a test result may mean nothing for the current project but be important for the next. This was long before computers and data bases.

A project to develop a powder would be assigned a number, in sequence. Project #4895 was to develop a medium speed rifle propellant suitable for 30-06 that exhibited certain other characteristics, including storage stability, low muzzle smoke, low muzzle flash, etc. When the project was finished the resulting powder carried the project number – 4895. Who knows what project #4896 was? I guess nothing came of it.

Getting back to Varget. I seem to recall buying that powder as 2206 or 2208. It was/is an Australian military powder. I assume the military powders would vary from lot to lot but I would expect the Varget “canister” lot powders to all be very close together in speed. The only powder I ever found with significant variation was IMR4320.

If shooters find the current lot of Varget is slow, it more likely means that the old lot of Varget they had got faster as it dried out.

Powder burns more consistantly at higher pressure. If a bullet is fatter it will generate more pressure, and more vlocity and better results. the reverse is true. If the lapua is smaller in daimeter, it will take more powder to boost pressure, velocity and consistancy.
 
Always work up from starting load when a change of ANY component is made especially if a new lot number. There will always be variance.

I would PREFER a slower lot of Varget as this will allow for higher load density and possibly faster velocity. Maybe the formulation is going back to the good old days...
Jerry

Hi Jerry,

I have always had to tweak a bit between lots of Varget, but ususally just a tenth of a grain or two. The problem with getting much over 31 grains in a 6BR is the need for a drop tube. I have a 6BR that with 30.1 of (old) Varget under a 105 scenar hits 2900 fps. The new batch and I was up to 31 grains for 2880. With my guns, the Lapuas like to be driven fast.

If there was a temperature tolerant ball powder that could give that kind of load density, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

I hear so many good things about VV 150 in 6BR but it is hard to find.
 
Obtunded, your best solution is Benchmark. Using some in a 223 with heavy bullets and like the performance with 'lower' density - more room for bullet.

Burn rate is likely 1 to 2grs faster for the same velocity. It might work better as it will have a faster time to peak pressure. That might just help bump that bullet enough for better sealing and velocity.

Very interesting incite on military powders. Surprising considering that there is only a couple of cartridges they need to service.

At least we get to play with their leftovers. Can't wait for their 'high velocity' powders and their copper fouling removal powders.

Probably another 10yrs.

Jerry
 
Mystic wrote: “Surprising considering that there is only a couple of cartridges they need to service.”

You might be surprised. Even in one caliber there are a number of variations in the ammo. Ball ammoloaded for rifle is sometimes different than ammo laoded intolinks. The latter may have an additive to reduce barrel heat – KCO3. Bad stuff in a rifle.
The powder used for a tracer is different. The powder for a armour piercing round is faster because there is less capacity for the longer bullet.

In some calibers there is a reduced power load for gallery training or as a spotter round for short range practice.

I don’t have my books with me (on vacation) but I would guess that each manufacturer has a catalog of over 100 small arms powders. Maybe 10 of those are sold commercial retail.

I have the catalogue, complete with the specifications of each powder (ingredients, grains size and water content) of each powder, forone manufacturer. One powder per line and there must be ten pages of powders.

I don’t think any of their military powders are sold commercially. I do recall that Winchester had a shorter list of powders, maybe 50, and I think some of those sold to militry were also available as retail canister powders.

I have seen Benchmark and Reloader 15 mentioned on this Forum. These are Swedish powders made by Bofors. Bofors sells a powder between these two in speed, RP28. I have found it to be perfect for 308 match ammo. Velocity Sds are single digit. But it is not sold commercially.

I know of one big commercial ammo company that uses Benchmark (or its bulk equivalent) to load ammo.
 
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