Velocity drop with short barrel

brybenn

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Hey all. Cva just released their optimal xp muzzleloader 50 cal with an 18" barrel and I think i need one. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with the velocity losses using 777 pellets or loose powder ffg
I doubt my platinum power belts with expand as their on the edge now with 100gr/v 777 from a 24" barrel but I've recently switched to the 250gr aerolite bullet
 
I've got no real input to the overall conversation... but I would like to ask..
Why choose any of these "modern muzzleloader" at all, opposed to a standard muzzleloader, which essentially has and is everything that this new one...

Im a musket and rifle of cap and flint shooter...

Not a hater type question.. truely interested in the opinion...of this appeal...
 
Ease of carrying and shorter oal will be easier in a blind. My 8yo daughter will start hunting with me so its on .e to carry in all the gear. In a blind a shorter gun is much nicer
I dont take far shots. Over 80 yards where I hunt is far. Most my deer are shot easily within bow range.
I like the look as well and already hunt with several chassis style rifles
 
I’d say something that short would experience a huge drop in velocity over anything longer. Black powder and its substitutes like barrel length.
Actually the British admiralty disagrees with that. I have read a report that they comishioned sometime after the civil war, it was mainly meant for cannon references but small arms were tested at the same time.
they pretty much came to a conclusion that :long barrel length to burn BP was folklore of no truth. Somehow , with the testing equipment available to them at the time they claimed unequivocally that all BP was effectively burnt in the first 17 inches of barrel length no matter bore size, max velocity was reached in that frame work and extra barrel length was just a "sighting radius" advantage.
I have no real "link" to this report , just that it was published in a magazine, "The Artilleryman" 30 or so yrs ago.
 
Actually the British admiralty disagrees with that. I have read a report that they comishioned sometime after the civil war, it was mainly meant for cannon references but small arms were tested at the same time.
they pretty much came to a conclusion that :long barrel length to burn BP was folklore of no truth. Somehow , with the testing equipment available to them at the time they claimed unequivocally that all BP was effectively burnt in the first 17 inches of barrel length no matter bore size, max velocity was reached in that frame work and extra barrel length was just a "sighting radius" advantage.
I have no real "link" to this report , just that it was published in a magazine, "The Artilleryman" 30 or so yrs ago.



Longer barrels do gain speed over short barrels and heavier black powder charges gain speed over lighter charges from either short or long barrels.

Some examples here from the Lyman BP handbook tested over a chronograph show a .50 caliber BP rifle with a .498" ball and .015" patch with G/O 3f as follows.

50 grains, 26" barrel, 1348 fps
50 grains, 43" barrel, 1506 fps

100 grains, 26" barrel, 1882 fps
100 grains, 43" barrel, 2095 fps

130 grains, 26" barrel, 2124 fps
130 grains, 43" barrel, 2295 fps

The formula is: 11.5 grains per cubic Inch of bore. You need a 36 inch barrel in .50 caliber to burn 80 grains of powder efficiently. (Actually, 81.29 grains!)

Using the calibre ( .50) determine the radius, because you need to know the area of a circle that size before determining the cubic length and content of a cylinder that diameter. The formula for determining the area of a circle is " Pi R Squared". Pi is 3.1416 for our purposes. R is the Radius.

Now the radius is half the diameter, so use .25 as your radius. Now square the radius, by multiplying it times itself.

.25 x .25= .0625. Now multiply that number times 3.1416, which equals .1963125.

Now, multiply that number times 11.5 = 2.2580.

Now, multiply that times your barrel length to get the volume of the cylinder that is your bore length and diameter. 36 x 2.2580 = 81.288, or 81.29 grains.

Charles Davenport did NOT Invent the formula. It was worked out centuries before him to use with all Black Powder firearms. Ordnance was concerned not only with how much powder needed to be shipped on warships to feed cannons, but also with how much powder was needed to feed muskets and later, rifles.

The King would not be very happy if he spent his money to send his army to a distant shore to battle foreign armies, only to be told his war was lost because the ordnance department didn't send along enough powder! So, bean counters were around a long time ago. The formula is NOT JUST FOR Cannons.

The formula does NOT say you can't PUT more powder in your barrel, or FIRE more powder in your barrel, or even GET MORE velocity by putting more powder in your barrel. It deals with getting the Most Velocity from the barrel with the Least Amount of Powder- that is " Efficiency".

When you pass the Efficient formula amount, you venture into the "Law of Diminishing Returns", that is, you get less and less increase in velocity for each measured increment in increase of powder.( Caveat: Particularly with shooting PRBs, the coefficient of friction between the PRB and the bore is so small, that you can get fluctuations in these velocities as you increase powder charges beyond the "efficient " formula- recommended load. Only meticulous attention to cleaning the barrel between each shot, and shooting long shot strings, to average, is going to give you a better idea about how any " Over charge load " will shoot out of your gun, on a particular day, with particular temperature and humidity present.)

Before overcharging any gun, you should take into consideration that the Sound Barrier does bad things to any projectile, but does even nastier things to a RB. Pushing any RB over 1135 fps. requires that ball to come back down through both the Sound Barrier, and the Transonic Zone, where all kinds of forces hammer the ball in the air.

And you should also consider that the faster something leaves the barrel to fly through the air, the faster it will slow down. You can see this clearly if you look at the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual( any edition) that shows shot size, MVs, and then down range velocities at 20, 40 & 60 yards. The Chart makes it very easy to compare loss of velocity for the faster MVs vs. the Slower MVs. for any particular size shot you are interested in.

Since "bird shot " are simply smaller Round Balls, the principles of Aerodynamics that apply to shot also apply to shooting a single Round Ball from a rifle or smoothbore through air.

Charles Davenport is reported to have walked the firing lines at Friendship each year talking to the shooters, asking the caliber of their rifles, and their barrel lengths, and then consulted his book to give them their maximum efficient load. Phil Quaglino relates that Davenport told shooters to reduce that max. efficient powder charge by 10% and then work up to find the most accurate load for their gun. The 10% factor helped to make adjustments for barrel harmonics, that are unique to each gun.
 
Longer barrels do gain speed over short barrels and heavier black powder charges gain speed over lighter charges from either short or long barrels.

Some examples here from the Lyman BP handbook tested over a chronograph show a .50 caliber BP rifle with a .498" ball and .015" patch with G/O 3f as follows.

50 grains, 26" barrel, 1348 fps
50 grains, 43" barrel, 1506 fps

100 grains, 26" barrel, 1882 fps
100 grains, 43" barrel, 2095 fps

130 grains, 26" barrel, 2124 fps
130 grains, 43" barrel, 2295 fps

The formula is: 11.5 grains per cubic Inch of bore. You need a 36 inch barrel in .50 caliber to burn 80 grains of powder efficiently. (Actually, 81.29 grains!)

Using the calibre ( .50) determine the radius, because you need to know the area of a circle that size before determining the cubic length and content of a cylinder that diameter. The formula for determining the area of a circle is " Pi R Squared". Pi is 3.1416 for our purposes. R is the Radius.

Now the radius is half the diameter, so use .25 as your radius. Now square the radius, by multiplying it times itself.

.25 x .25= .0625. Now multiply that number times 3.1416, which equals .1963125.

Now, multiply that number times 11.5 = 2.2580.

Now, multiply that times your barrel length to get the volume of the cylinder that is your bore length and diameter. 36 x 2.2580 = 81.288, or 81.29 grains.

Charles Davenport did NOT Invent the formula. It was worked out centuries before him to use with all Black Powder firearms. Ordnance was concerned not only with how much powder needed to be shipped on warships to feed cannons, but also with how much powder was needed to feed muskets and later, rifles.

The King would not be very happy if he spent his money to send his army to a distant shore to battle foreign armies, only to be told his war was lost because the ordnance department didn't send along enough powder! So, bean counters were around a long time ago. The formula is NOT JUST FOR Cannons.

The formula does NOT say you can't PUT more powder in your barrel, or FIRE more powder in your barrel, or even GET MORE velocity by putting more powder in your barrel. It deals with getting the Most Velocity from the barrel with the Least Amount of Powder- that is " Efficiency".

When you pass the Efficient formula amount, you venture into the "Law of Diminishing Returns", that is, you get less and less increase in velocity for each measured increment in increase of powder.( Caveat: Particularly with shooting PRBs, the coefficient of friction between the PRB and the bore is so small, that you can get fluctuations in these velocities as you increase powder charges beyond the "efficient " formula- recommended load. Only meticulous attention to cleaning the barrel between each shot, and shooting long shot strings, to average, is going to give you a better idea about how any " Over charge load " will shoot out of your gun, on a particular day, with particular temperature and humidity present.)

Before overcharging any gun, you should take into consideration that the Sound Barrier does bad things to any projectile, but does even nastier things to a RB. Pushing any RB over 1135 fps. requires that ball to come back down through both the Sound Barrier, and the Transonic Zone, where all kinds of forces hammer the ball in the air.

And you should also consider that the faster something leaves the barrel to fly through the air, the faster it will slow down. You can see this clearly if you look at the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual( any edition) that shows shot size, MVs, and then down range velocities at 20, 40 & 60 yards. The Chart makes it very easy to compare loss of velocity for the faster MVs vs. the Slower MVs. for any particular size shot you are interested in.

Since "bird shot " are simply smaller Round Balls, the principles of Aerodynamics that apply to shot also apply to shooting a single Round Ball from a rifle or smoothbore through air.

Charles Davenport is reported to have walked the firing lines at Friendship each year talking to the shooters, asking the caliber of their rifles, and their barrel lengths, and then consulted his book to give them their maximum efficient load. Phil Quaglino relates that Davenport told shooters to reduce that max. efficient powder charge by 10% and then work up to find the most accurate load for their gun. The 10% factor helped to make adjustments for barrel harmonics, that are unique to each gun.
My old traditions deer hunter you could see the unburned powder on the snow with a heavy charge. Black powder has a quick pressure curve that ramps up quick but is consistent for most of the bore length.
 
Longer barrels do gain speed over short barrels and heavier black powder charges gain speed over lighter charges from either short or long barrels.

Some examples here from the Lyman BP handbook tested over a chronograph show a .50 caliber BP rifle with a .498" ball and .015" patch with G/O 3f as follows.

50 grains, 26" barrel, 1348 fps
50 grains, 43" barrel, 1506 fps

100 grains, 26" barrel, 1882 fps
100 grains, 43" barrel, 2095 fps

130 grains, 26" barrel, 2124 fps
130 grains, 43" barrel, 2295 fps

The formula is: 11.5 grains per cubic Inch of bore. You need a 36 inch barrel in .50 caliber to burn 80 grains of powder efficiently. (Actually, 81.29 grains!)

Using the calibre ( .50) determine the radius, because you need to know the area of a circle that size before determining the cubic length and content of a cylinder that diameter. The formula for determining the area of a circle is " Pi R Squared". Pi is 3.1416 for our purposes. R is the Radius.

Now the radius is half the diameter, so use .25 as your radius. Now square the radius, by multiplying it times itself.

.25 x .25= .0625. Now multiply that number times 3.1416, which equals .1963125.

Now, multiply that number times 11.5 = 2.2580.

Now, multiply that times your barrel length to get the volume of the cylinder that is your bore length and diameter. 36 x 2.2580 = 81.288, or 81.29 grains.

Charles Davenport did NOT Invent the formula. It was worked out centuries before him to use with all Black Powder firearms. Ordnance was concerned not only with how much powder needed to be shipped on warships to feed cannons, but also with how much powder was needed to feed muskets and later, rifles.

The King would not be very happy if he spent his money to send his army to a distant shore to battle foreign armies, only to be told his war was lost because the ordnance department didn't send along enough powder! So, bean counters were around a long time ago. The formula is NOT JUST FOR Cannons.

The formula does NOT say you can't PUT more powder in your barrel, or FIRE more powder in your barrel, or even GET MORE velocity by putting more powder in your barrel. It deals with getting the Most Velocity from the barrel with the Least Amount of Powder- that is " Efficiency".

When you pass the Efficient formula amount, you venture into the "Law of Diminishing Returns", that is, you get less and less increase in velocity for each measured increment in increase of powder.( Caveat: Particularly with shooting PRBs, the coefficient of friction between the PRB and the bore is so small, that you can get fluctuations in these velocities as you increase powder charges beyond the "efficient " formula- recommended load. Only meticulous attention to cleaning the barrel between each shot, and shooting long shot strings, to average, is going to give you a better idea about how any " Over charge load " will shoot out of your gun, on a particular day, with particular temperature and humidity present.)

Before overcharging any gun, you should take into consideration that the Sound Barrier does bad things to any projectile, but does even nastier things to a RB. Pushing any RB over 1135 fps. requires that ball to come back down through both the Sound Barrier, and the Transonic Zone, where all kinds of forces hammer the ball in the air.

And you should also consider that the faster something leaves the barrel to fly through the air, the faster it will slow down. You can see this clearly if you look at the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual( any edition) that shows shot size, MVs, and then down range velocities at 20, 40 & 60 yards. The Chart makes it very easy to compare loss of velocity for the faster MVs vs. the Slower MVs. for any particular size shot you are interested in.

Since "bird shot " are simply smaller Round Balls, the principles of Aerodynamics that apply to shot also apply to shooting a single Round Ball from a rifle or smoothbore through air.

Charles Davenport is reported to have walked the firing lines at Friendship each year talking to the shooters, asking the caliber of their rifles, and their barrel lengths, and then consulted his book to give them their maximum efficient load. Phil Quaglino relates that Davenport told shooters to reduce that max. efficient powder charge by 10% and then work up to find the most accurate load for their gun. The 10% factor helped to make adjustments for barrel harmonics, that are unique to each gun.
Thanks for the math. If I'd had known about it earlier, probably would have saved me a bunch of powder.

I did learn through range sessions that my Hawken rifles (relatively short barreled .45 and .50 calibers) reached a point of diminishing returns when it comes to upping the charge. I found that after about 70-80 grains of black in the .50 cal (which I shoot more often than the .45), I'm just throwing unburnt powder out of the barrel.

I haven't shot 80 grains behind my cast R.E.A.L. boolits through a chronograph, but they seem to hit the target with authority, and there's plenty of recoil, so my take away was that the gun is designed to shoot that load inside 100m and will most likely take down just about anything in NA if I were to do my part.

For paper targets, I'll drop the charge to 40-50 grains for 50m targets with no ill effect on accuracy. No noticeable bullet drop.
 
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