VERY Interesting IPSC Rule Question for Production…

Crosswind

Crosswind

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VERY Interesting IPSC Rule Question for Production…

First off let me paste two particular parts of the 2012 IPSC Handgun Rule book (relevant to production division):

FIRST PART:
8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – Chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

SECOND PART:
APPENDIX D4: Production Division

Special conditions:

15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.


My question is: If I was shooting production (gun condition for the stage is 'loaded and holstered') and I intentionally left my chamber empty, what is the penalty for firing the first shot single action?

I was recently mulling this since some stages may require moving over a significant distance before reaching your first shooting position; and if the targets are far, not having to double-action your first shot is an advantage (not huge, but still an advantage)

The rulebook only specifies a procedural penalty for cocking the hammer on a loaded chamber, but not an unloaded one. But at the same time, it specifies that "first shot attempted must be double action". So does dry fire count as a shot attempted?

Note from rule 8.1 that the RO will not remind shooter that he forgot to load chamber; so that shooter will draw, dryfire, realize his mistake, rack the slide, and continue (with some laughs in the background). I've seen this several times and no procedural penalties were given.

If there are any ROs reading this, basically I just want to know if you would allow a competitor to start with an empty chamber; then upon start signal, draw, then rack slide on the move, then fire first shot single action. If not, what would be the penalty?

Thanks all, and sorry for the long read
 
Crosswind said:
First off let me paste two particular parts of the 2012 IPSC Handgun Rule book (relevant to production division):

FIRST PART:
8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – Chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

SECOND PART:
APPENDIX D4: Production Division

Special conditions:

15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.


My question is: If I was shooting production (gun condition for the stage is 'loaded and holstered') and I intentionally left my chamber empty, what is the penalty for firing the first shot single action?

I was recently mulling this since some stages may require moving over a significant distance before reaching your first shooting position; and if the targets are far, not having to double-action your first shot is an advantage (not huge, but still an advantage)

The rulebook only specifies a procedural penalty for cocking the hammer on a loaded chamber, but not an unloaded one. But at the same time, it specifies that "first shot attempted must be double action". So does dry fire count as a shot attempted?

Note from rule 8.1 that the RO will not remind shooter that he forgot to load chamber; so that shooter will draw, dryfire, realize his mistake, rack the slide, and continue (with some laughs in the background). I've seen this several times and no procedural penalties were given.

If there are any ROs reading this, basically I just want to know if you would allow a competitor to start with an empty chamber; then upon start signal, draw, then rack slide on the move, then fire first shot single action. If not, what would be the penalty?

Thanks all, and sorry for the long read
Click to expand...

I would think that you would infact be penalizing yourself buy increasing your time by doing that. It would be most likely faster just taking a extra shot, that is fire three off the hop and pretty much assumed the first one was a miss.
 
if i was the RO it would depend on your action. if you drew the gun, racked the slide and fired your first shot then i would feel that you did not satisfied the requirements of rule D4.15 since you did not attempt to fire your first shot double action and award you one procedural penalty. if you pulled the trigger, went aw #### and racked and fired then i would try not to giggle to loudly while you finished the COF.
 
I've got to say ... doesn't IPSC also stand for "Irrational People Squabbling Constantly"?

Gaming the rulebook !! What about running the course the way it was designed?
 
Options

Other options are to sell that gun and get one for another div.
Or use your Pd gun in Std div. and eat the points difference.
Or, heaven forbid, learn how to score fast hits with the DA first shot.

Production div. is there for many good reasons, including the practical one of learning how to use the darn things.
 
as an RO I concur with Walter on this one......however, if you think you can save time by dry firing and racking while on the way to that first shot then you'd better be aiming at a target or you'll get a DQ for failure to keep your finger outside the trigger guard while under movement
 
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Woah there, settle down.

I'm just asking a question about whether starting with an empty chamber is an option, even though the gun condition is 'loaded and holstered'. I already have the habit of always starting with 11 rds even though a stage only requires 5 shots and I already knew some people just dump their first DA shot towards the targets before they really get started (each shooter has their own quirks/reasons/preferences).

No need to accuse people of gaming, not knowing how to fire a DA shot, or failing to aim at a target before dry-firing...
 
for those of us responding as RO's you got the answers to your questions concerning any consequences of such actions....good to see you're trying to find out answers to things you aren't sure of
 
A good question and I would go with Walter's response. The gun condition was specified in the briefing; it wasn't a "freestyle" start. But for more "murky" clarity you could also pose the question over at Global Village.
 
Boy, some are anxoius to hand out penalties.

If you start with an empty chamber, as you are ofen required to do by the stage description) you will not get a penalty, so why penalize someone for starting with a disadvantage.

Would you give a penalty to a std shooter for starting with an empty chamber when he is supposed to be loaded.

If you started with an empty chamber, the safest way to carry a pistol by the way, then you will be starting with, 1 round less ( 10) so you are already handicapped, plus the time to draw and rack the gun.

Why give a penalty for this??? a double action pistol is designed to be safer than a cocked and locked pistol but requires more skill to fire a first accurate shot. A pistol with an unloaded chamber is even safer but requires even more skill to draw rack and fire than double action.

The obvious way to avoid the penalty given by readers of a badly worded rule is to just fire the first DA round downrange and then aim for the rest.

The application of penalties where none should be applied is the reason the rulebook has become so cumbersome.

My 0.02
 
If the range command is "Load and Make Ready" and all you have done is complied with the "Load" command then how do you answer the "Are you Ready?" command with a "yes", when clearly you are not "Ready"?. Do you get the penalty for not following the range commands?

Take Care

Bob
 
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