Walther 99

[Gundoggy]

In the US Walther forum the slide stop spring is usually the first part to go at around 10-20K rounds. This is a very small spring.

There was one guy, who also is a Gunnut who had the block which also contains the ejector fail. This is one of the weaknesses of the P99, the ejector is part of a block containing a whole bunch of other parts too.

This durability issue is pretty interesting. Articles about the P99 talk about guns around 50K with no problems. Yet multiple Canadian ranges have had early parts failures. One range even told me to 'Get rid of your P99 and get a gun that will last 200K rounds+'. They advised a 9mm 1911 in steel frame. A fellow at P&D told me about a lady who shoots IPSC (high round counts) with a P99 for a few years now with no parts failure.

So either we in Canada keep getting 'bad batches', or somehow the range guns just break earlier....

I still like the range stats, lets even assume that range guns are somehow abused...wouldn't you want the one that lasts the longest in such an environment? Now if they're not abused then the stats would indicate fragility in the P99. Either way, gun range stats on frequency of breakage are very useful.

Now I don't hate the P99. It's one of the most accurate shooting guns I've ever handled. Something about the grip and the excellent trigger gives it phenomenal accuracy. I just don't trust it as a long term gun. I used to own a few but sold all except one to keep as a "007 gun".

I do have to thank Redleg for his observations leading to my distrust of the P99. If that never happened I would have never discovered the HK P7M8!!!
Now this is an even better gun (smaller, slimmer, easier mag release) ....sure some guys in the US have had parts failure...so I ordered a huge supply of spare springs and parts to make it last a long time!!!

P99 lovers can stock up on parts too. Problem solved regarding parts failure.

 

[Sephirius]

Man, that extended barrel looks ugly as sin. I'd replace it with a threaded one asap just to make it look better.

 

[Nine]

I've not shot one, but handled one and tested the trigger. Not too shabby, OK trigger, kinda spendy. The S&W M&P feels and looks better IMO.

 

[Laserlips]

FWIW:

Chances are if you are reading or posting on firearms forums you are a "gun" person. Depending your your age and consequently experiences with various firearms you have probably already made up your mind about what "is, or is not" a "good" gun. Facts aren't going to sway your opinion, as you formed it after personal experience with a particular firearm.

Or, if YOUR (name the pisto/revolver here) was great, you love 'em all.. If your experience was bad, you'll distrust, and bad mouth them until the end of time.. Just the way the human mind works.

My amazement regarding the negatives expressed by some folks on this forum regarding the Walther P99 series of pistols is simply that I don't hear the same complaints on other forums. I just don't.

I don't know how many Walther P99's/SW99's, and the compact versions are "out there" but I do know that apparently 99.9% of the folks who actually own and shoot them seem quite content.

IF the Walther P99 owners in the U.S. were experiencing the problems mentioned on this forum to the same degree you can bet it would be all over the forums. It's not.

I take any post written by someone who rents a product and then complains about the durability of that product with a grain of salt. There simply can be no comparison to a "rental" anything, and the same product purchased new, and maintained well by an individual. You can tell me all day long that the maintenance is done as well on the rental versions until the cows come home, but chances are you are comparing rental "apples" to privately owned "oranges", and it's not a fair comparison.

There are folks who think anything not a Colt 1911 is junk, or not Glock is junk, or not "whatever" is junk. A whole industry has been built around some of these individual firearms and you will never be able to convince those folks that an out of the box quality "plastic" pistol will out shoot their expensive, custom tricked out model 1911's (or whatever).

But I have owned a 1911 in the past.. Pistols I've owned or own over the past 50 years, an had, or have personal experience with include: Sigs/Berettas/Bersas/Firestorms/S&W/KelTec/Star/Browning/Tokarev/Galesi/Ruger/Taurus/NAA/ParaOrd/Glock.. Probably more I can't even remember. Of the entire bunch the absolute two BEST pistols of the bunch have been the Sig P239 and the Walther P99....

For what it's worth MY personal P10 ParaOrdinance "made in Canada" was #####. I say MY pistol, because I'm sure the majority of those mfg by Para are probably fine firearms. I do know resale value of PO's are ZERO in my part of the US.

We all have preferences in all aspects of life. If you had a bad experience with P99's, especially on your rental pistols and you want to badmouth them until the end of time, that's your choice. I would suggest that if you have a rental range for firearms and all you care about is durability you just buy RUGERs, RUGERs, RUGERs.. Rugers are built like a tank and should take the abuse and extensive number of rounds thru them that would be expected in a rental firearm.

Trouble is, Rugers are simply IMO, average pistols.. Big, heavy, well built, but that's it. I doubt that 5% of the people in the US prefer Rugers as there are just too many better options.

Sorry to rant, but to keep hearing the same song and dance from the same few people knocking the Walther P99's kinda wears thin.

I am an old fart, I am opinionated, thick skinned, and anyone who disagrees with my opinion is MORE than welcome to join in this conversation.

Regarding firearms, this Walther P99 pistol is not my first "rodeo", and perhaps I did fall off the "turnip truck", but it wasn't yesterday. I base MY opinions on personal experience, and the experiences of firearm owning friends and their experiences...

So, MY Walther P99/AS and P99c/AS suit MY needs to a "t". I have already found out the accuracy of these pistols is fantastic, and if one breaks I'll get the sucker fixed. I have NO concern in that area however, and I feel fully confident in both of my Walthers. I carry the compact concealed on a regular basis and I trust it will function quite well if ever needed. That's all I ask of it.

My firearms are all purchased with personal and home defense in mine. I am not a long distance target shooter, I am not into competetive competition at pistol shoots. I just want to be able to place enough rounds in center mass at self defense range of any threat to solve the problem..

And, IF it falls apart after a zillion rounds I'll toss it in the nearest dumpster and buy another. No problem.

J. Pomeroy

 

[Bartledan]

Waxy, greasy plastic that can be permanently indented with a thumbnail.

 

[redleg]

FWIW:

Chances are if you are reading or posting on firearms forums you are a "gun" person. Depending your your age and consequently experiences with various firearms you have probably already made up your mind about what "is, or is not" a "good" gun. Facts aren't going to sway your opinion, as you formed it after personal experience with a particular firearm.

Or, if YOUR (name the pisto/revolver here) was great, you love 'em all.. If your experience was bad, you'll distrust, and bad mouth them until the end of time.. Just the way the human mind works.

My amazement regarding the negatives expressed by some folks on this forum regarding the Walther P99 series of pistols is simply that I don't hear the same complaints on other forums. I just don't.

I don't know how many Walther P99's/SW99's, and the compact versions are "out there" but I do know that apparently 99.9% of the folks who actually own and shoot them seem quite content.

IF the Walther P99 owners in the U.S. were experiencing the problems mentioned on this forum to the same degree you can bet it would be all over the forums. It's not.

I take any post written by someone who rents a product and then complains about the durability of that product with a grain of salt. There simply can be no comparison to a "rental" anything, and the same product purchased new, and maintained well by an individual. You can tell me all day long that the maintenance is done as well on the rental versions until the cows come home, but chances are you are comparing rental "apples" to privately owned "oranges", and it's not a fair comparison.

There are folks who think anything not a Colt 1911 is junk, or not Glock is junk, or not "whatever" is junk. A whole industry has been built around some of these individual firearms and you will never be able to convince those folks that an out of the box quality "plastic" pistol will out shoot their expensive, custom tricked out model 1911's (or whatever).

But I have owned a 1911 in the past.. Pistols I've owned or own over the past 50 years, an had, or have personal experience with include: Sigs/Berettas/Bersas/Firestorms/S&W/KelTec/Star/Browning/Tokarev/Galesi/Ruger/Taurus/NAA/ParaOrd/Glock.. Probably more I can't even remember. Of the entire bunch the absolute two BEST pistols of the bunch have been the Sig P239 and the Walther P99....

For what it's worth MY personal P10 ParaOrdinance "made in Canada" was #####. I say MY pistol, because I'm sure the majority of those mfg by Para are probably fine firearms. I do know resale value of PO's are ZERO in my part of the US.

We all have preferences in all aspects of life. If you had a bad experience with P99's, especially on your rental pistols and you want to badmouth them until the end of time, that's your choice. I would suggest that if you have a rental range for firearms and all you care about is durability you just buy RUGERs, RUGERs, RUGERs.. Rugers are built like a tank and should take the abuse and extensive number of rounds thru them that would be expected in a rental firearm.

Trouble is, Rugers are simply IMO, average pistols.. Big, heavy, well built, but that's it. I doubt that 5% of the people in the US prefer Rugers as there are just too many better options.

Sorry to rant, but to keep hearing the same song and dance from the same few people knocking the Walther P99's kinda wears thin.

I am an old fart, I am opinionated, thick skinned, and anyone who disagrees with my opinion is MORE than welcome to join in this conversation.

Regarding firearms, this Walther P99 pistol is not my first "rodeo", and perhaps I did fall off the "turnip truck", but it wasn't yesterday. I base MY opinions on personal experience, and the experiences of firearm owning friends and their experiences...

So, MY Walther P99/AS and P99c/AS suit MY needs to a "t". I have already found out the accuracy of these pistols is fantastic, and if one breaks I'll get the sucker fixed. I have NO concern in that area however, and I feel fully confident in both of my Walthers. I carry the compact concealed on a regular basis and I trust it will function quite well if ever needed. That's all I ask of it.

And, IF it falls apart after a zillion rounds I'll toss it in the nearest dumpster and buy another. No problem.

J. Pomeroy

Well since I asume that this was directed my way, let me respond.

I don't believe I stated that the Walthers were crap, I maintain that they are more fragile than many less expensive guns and are therefore not much of a deal in my opinion.
FWIW I post my experiences on several boards and I generally get an argument about my results. Almost always it is from Glock owners who cannot stand to hear that Glocks do indeed die and usually before SIGs or CZs. I don't discount what I hear or don't hear on internet sites, but I am used to taking it with a grain of salt when it directly contradicts my experiences and those of the other rental ranges in Alberta.
I've been in this business for 6 years now. I run all the range guns to failure, and we run quite a few. I don't know why you seem to think that things breaking here (whether maintained or not) bears no relationship to their durability out there, because it does. After destroying scores of guns, I feel pretty qualified to mention whether they are durable or not.
Rugers are OK, not great and we run several of them.
You may note that I don't normally discuss reliability. This is because I cannot accurately track stoggages of range guns.
I always qualify any reports with the facts that we do run our guns hard and any modern production gun built by a reputable maker will likely last most shooters a lifetime. And as always I look at the price of the gun in determining its value to the user.
A Norinco costs me only about 35% of what a SIG does. If it were to last only 35% of the lifespan of the SIG it would be an acceptable gun to run. Unfortunately they only get about 10% of the life span.
Walther P99s cost me 35% more than Glocks but last only about half as long. So, they are not a great value in my opinion. They cost a little bit more than a SIG P226 but last only about a third as long, again not great value in my mind.
So for hard use, Walthers are expensive and not particularly durable. If it the gun for you, then party on. I am not calling you down on your choice, as it is exactly what you want for your purposes.
I like SIGs, many don't. I don't hold it against them. I was pleasantly surprised that the SIGs lasted as long as they did on the range, but even if they didn't I'd still own mine.

 

[Laserlips]

Well since I asume that this was directed my way, let me respond.

I don't believe I stated that the Walthers were crap, I maintain that they are more fragile than many less expensive guns and are therefore not much of a deal in my opinion.
FWIW I post my experiences on several boards and I generally get an argument about my results. Almost always it is from Glock owners who cannot stand to hear that Glocks do indeed die and usually before SIGs or CZs. I don't discount what I hear or don't hear on internet sites, but I am used to taking it with a grain of salt when it directly contradicts my experiences and those of the other rental ranges in Alberta.
I've been in this business for 6 years now. I run all the range guns to failure, and we run quite a few. I don't know why you seem to think that things breaking here (whether maintained or not) bears no relationship to their durability out there, because it does. After destroying scores of guns, I feel pretty qualified to mention whether they are durable or not.
Rugers are OK, not great and we run several of them.
You may note that I don't normally discuss reliability. This is because I cannot accurately track stoggages of range guns.
I always qualify any reports with the facts that we do run our guns hard and any modern production gun built by a reputable maker will likely last most shooters a lifetime. And as always I look at the price of the gun in determining its value to the user.
A Norinco costs me only about 35% of what a SIG does. If it were to last only 35% of the lifespan of the SIG it would be an acceptable gun to run. Unfortunately they only get about 10% of the life span.
Walther P99s cost me 35% more than Glocks but last only about half as long. So, they are not a great value in my opinion. They cost a little bit more than a SIG P226 but last only about a third as long, again not great value in my mind.
So for hard use, Walthers are expensive and not particularly durable. If it the gun for you, then party on. I am not calling you down on your choice, as it is exactly what you want for your purposes.
I like SIGs, many don't. I don't hold it against them. I was pleasantly surprised that the SIGs lasted as long as they did on the range, but even if they didn't I'd still own mine.

redleg:

Well, I hate it that you thought my post was directed at you. (But, of course it was).

However, now that we have this little debate down to you and I, I hear what you are saying from your perspective.. I just having trouble relating to it because you run your range guns "hard", in fact to "the point of failure"..

See, as I've mentioned before I doubt that the average gun owner runs 10,000 rds thru his/her personal weapon in a lifetime of ownership... I certainly cannot envision 30,40,50,000 rds.

You and I agree that "any modern production gun built by a reputable maker will likely last most most shooters a lifetime"....

That's all I care about.. If MY firearms last MY lifetime I'm a happy camper.. I could care less that if somewhere on a private firing range a rental Walther P99, goes belly-up after having had a lifetime of being run hard and up wet...

For conversational use it is interesting that long term durability testing on a specific model of firearm such as you have the opportunity to experience gives you a perspective most private firearm owners don't have.

As I have no evidence to the contrary, and I have no reason to question your honesty in the matter, I accept your findings regarding long term durability of the Walther P99's in an enviornment such as you experience.

Having said that. I honestly don't think those findings amount to a hill of beans for the average firearm owner. I don't know what the "average" lifetime of any modern firearm is, but if it's made by a reputable manufacturer and reasonably pricy, I'll bet you that life expectancy of that firearm will indeed NORMALLY be greater than the lifetime of the average firearm owner.

As I've mentioned I'm a senior citizen and in all of my years of firearms ownership I've yet to "wear out" a good firearm. But then again, I doubt that I've ever "run" 5000 rds thru any one of my individual firearms.

Most folks I know who own pistols/revolvers for personal protection or home defense want two things in their firearm of choice. 1. Absolute reliability. 2. Reasonable self defence accuracy at self defense range. Anything beyond that is nice, but not a vital necessity.

Knowing that my Walther P99c/AS is "probably going to wear out" after several tens of thousands of rounds is just not a concern.

Sorry I got testy on this issue, and especially sorry I pointed my argument at you personally. Certainly you know more about the durability issue of the Walther P99's than I do, even tho what you have experienced has no bearing on my personal situation with MY two Walther P99's.

You are talking long term pistol durability to the point of being worn out, I am thinking practical average firearm use.. Two different things.

You are talking long term durability firearms when compared to each other as used in a harsh,rental enviornment, and I am thinking more in what I like in a particular firearm for my needs as a private individual.

I think the priority you have and what you seek in a firearm relates more to "durability" than what most shooters are concerned about. Obviously the longer you can rent a product the more income you derive from it. In your situation I would prefer the practical pistol with the greatest potential for making me money. I think of myself as an average shooter, and such things as unusual accuracy, great grip ergonomics, great trigger/striker, etc. mean more to me than the concern that after I die the pistol will eventually die too......

There's probably a middle ground here someplace between reasonable durability of a specific firearm and other considerations not relating to durabilty alone, but we have to be careful not to stumble on it.




Best Wishes,


J. Pomeroy

 

[redleg]

redleg:

Well, I hate it that you thought my post was directed at you. (But, of course it was).

However, now that we have this little debate down to you and I, I hear what you are saying from your perspective.. I just having trouble relating to it because you run your range guns "hard", in fact to "the point of failure"..

See, as I've mentioned before I doubt that the average gun owner runs 10,000 rds thru his/her personal weapon in a lifetime of ownership... I certainly cannot envision 30,40,50,000 rds.

You and I agree that "any modern production gun built by a reputable maker will likely last most most shooters a lifetime"....

That's all I care about.. If MY firearms last MY lifetime I'm a happy camper.. I could care less that if somewhere on a private firing range a rental Walther P99, goes belly-up after having had a lifetime of being run hard and up wet...

For conversational use it is interesting that long term durability testing on a specific model of firearm such as you have the opportunity to experience gives you a perspective most private firearm owners don't have.

As I have no evidence to the contrary, and I have no reason to question your honesty in the matter, I accept your findings regarding long term durability of the Walther P99's in an enviornment such as you experience.

Having said that. I honestly don't think those findings amount to a hill of beans for the average firearm owner. I don't know what the "average" lifetime of any modern firearm is, but if it's made by a reputable manufacturer and reasonably pricy, I'll bet you that life expectancy of that firearm will indeed NORMALLY be greater than the lifetime of the average firearm owner.

As I've mentioned I'm a senior citizen and in all of my years of firearms ownership I've yet to "wear out" a good firearm. But then again, I doubt that I've ever "run" 5000 rds thru any one of my individual firearms.

Most folks I know who own pistols/revolvers for personal protection or home defense want two things in their firearm of choice. 1. Absolute reliability. 2. Reasonable self defence accuracy at self defense range. Anything beyond that is nice, but not a vital necessity.

Knowing that my Walther P99c/AS is "probably going to wear out" after several tens of thousands of rounds is just not a concern.

Sorry I got testy on this issue, and especially sorry I pointed my argument at you personally. Certainly you know more about the durability issue of the Walther P99's than I do, even tho what you have experienced has no bearing on my personal situation with MY two Walther P99's.

You are talking long term pistol durability to the point of being worn out, I am thinking practical average firearm use.. Two different things.

You are talking long term durability firearms when compared to each other as used in a harsh,rental enviornment, and I am thinking more in what I like in a particular firearm for my needs as a private individual.

I think the priority you have and what you seek in a firearm relates more to "durability" than what most shooters are concerned about. Obviously the longer you can rent a product the more income you derive from it. In your situation I would prefer the practical pistol with the greatest potential for making me money. I think of myself as an average shooter, and such things as unusual accuracy, great grip ergonomics, great trigger/striker, etc. mean more to me than the concern that after I die the pistol will eventually die too......

There's probably a middle ground here someplace between reasonable durability of a specific firearm and other considerations not relating to durabilty alone, but we have to be careful not to stumble on it.




Best Wishes,


J. Pomeroy

Well I hate to say it, but we pretty much agree. There are some folks that do run their guns hard. But most people are content to shoot a few hundred or a thousand rounds per year through their pistol. Even a Norinco will last quite a while under those conditions.