Walther Dilemma

Ammo was not the issue unfortunately. I'd blame the ammo if I could but it was not a factor. Stranger than fiction I had a strange box of AE5022 show up. Copper plated 40gn. All in the same rack, 1 brick, 1 box.

Just a bad day. Words cannot express the level of frustration. Worst range day ever.
 
Got Juice? said:
I have been to the range 3 times to get some kind of reproducible results to snap some pics of.

Posted some groups in the .4,.7 range with both rifles, and 3 different shooters.
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You're funny. Those groups represent excellent 100 yard .22 LR performance. At 50 yards, that is the best many Savage, Ruger, and CZ shooter can hope for, no matter the ammo used.

Unless you have lucked into a superior lot of ammunition, most groupings are liable to have 1/2" to 3/4" of vertical spread due to velocity variance. 10fps represents 1/4" drop at 100 yards, most lots of "match" ammo in the range of Midas+ and R-50 show 15-30 fps ES per 5 shot group. 1 mph 90 degree crosswind will blow you over about 25/64th, or 0.39". Got a 5 mph gust? Kiss your bullet 1.8" over to the side.

All this before we even get to accuracy of the rifle or your shooting skills. Relax man... shooting is supposed to be fun... :)
 
Most days I won't even bother trying @ 100 as I get very few times that there isn't some wind blowing.Just wasting expensive ammo.I've had many good and bad range day's.Some days I'm on others not.Shooting at 100 is way different than 50 with rimfires if it 1moa at 50 it's more like 1.25-1.5 moa at 100
 
Got Juice? said:
I hate my life. I have been to the range 3 times to get some kind of reproducible results to snap some pics of. Weather has not been cooperative to say the least.

Today was overcast with a middling 10mph wind at 60m, tapering to 7-12 gusts at 100. Yesterday was even worse (if you can imagine) we had 0 wind, so you would think that conditions were perfect. But it was not to be. The sky was cloudless, and the effect of direct sun on the snow was some strange ground wind conditions, seen as some really strange mirage through the scope.

Posted some groups in the .4,.7 range with both rifles, and 3 different shooters. just not our day today. Stopped after shooting 100 rounds through each rifle. Even tried a quick clean, and a fresh 25 fouling, and no joy.

This has been the first time I have ever experienced frustration at the range. A bitter pill to swallow when nothing works right. Normally range time is so relaxing. Time to take a week off and regroup. If you lose confidence, no matter the gear, your shooting will suck.

I might send the gun to YoDave to play with. See what he can do :)
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Yeah, YoDave might offer you a straight trade for his Swindlehurst:rolleyes:
 
RabidM4U5 said:
10fps represents 1/4" drop at 100 yards
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What is the ballistics calculator that gives that result?

Chairgun seems to give different results. Using BC values from 110 to 150, typical match ammo with an MV of 1050, Chairgun shows a drop of about 0.15" at 100 yards with a 10fps reduction in muzzle velocity. A 20 fps difference in MV would appear to result in about a 0.25" difference in POI.
 
Thanks fellas. I hear you on the relax part. The frustration lies with me. These rifles are begging to show their chops and weather/ammo/me are inadequate right now to really showcase what these rifles are capable of. Its not even for bragging rights, more like an appreciation for some of these old soldiers. I'm not great with words, but both rifles feel like caged animals, just waiting to strut their stuff.

No ego involved, just having the patience to let it go and hope for a better performance that I can post up :)
 
Got Juice? said:
Then you shoot them dammit!!! Lol.
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I would be pleased to! Where ya at!?? Perspective bud, 0.1's and 0.2's at 50 yards is considered high level bench rest accuracy with .22 LR, don't think you're going to hit 0.2's at 100 with ease or regularity!

grauhanen said:
What is the ballistics calculator that gives that result?

Chairgun seems to give different results. Using BC values from 110 to 150, typical match ammo with an MV of 1050, Chairgun shows a drop of about 0.15" at 100 yards with a 10fps reduction in muzzle velocity. A 20 fps difference in MV would appear to result in about a 0.25" difference in POI.
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What zero distance did ya use? Thing is, the ballistic calculator will skew the results for fps drop by adjusting the launch angle to suit the zero distance based on velocity variation. I just downloaded that ballistic calculator and using a 10 yard zero got 0.22" vertical variation for 10fps at 100 yards. What we need to see is flat 0 degree launch angle and the vertical drop experienced under that condition. Unlike a ballistic calculator, your zero does not change shot to shot in concert with velocity variance in real life. Real life launch angle is constant, ballistic calculator skews to hit zero by adjusting launch angle to suit fps inputted.
 
The zero is constant at 50 yards; only the MV of the ammo changes. This is as it would happen if POA was the center of the target and the MV of the ammo changed. This is as it happens in "real life."

The 50 yards is arbitrarily selected. The change in POI is at 100 yards.
 
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grauhanen said:
The zero is constant at 50 yards; only the MV of the ammo changes. This is as it would happen if POA was the center of the target and the MV of the ammo changed. This is as it happens in "real life."

The 50 yards is arbitrarily selected. The change in POI is at 100 yards.
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What you have to recognize here, is that the calculator changes the launch angle when you change the fps of the bullet, so that "0" is always hit at 50 yards. This change in launch angle to hit your 50 yard "0" skews how much the bullet will actually drop at 100 yards. If you set "0" at 100, the calculator will be showing you hitting "0" no matter the fps inputted. Following? In real life, once you have set a launch angle to hit "0" at 100 yards, there is no compensation in launch angle should the next round fired be of a different velocity. In real life, you will not hit the 50 yard "0" when your velocity varies, because your launch angle remains constant, unlike what the calculator is showing you.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
I would be pleased to! Where ya at!?? Perspective bud, 0.1's and 0.2's at 50 yards is considered high level bench rest accuracy with .22 LR, don't think you're going to hit 0.2's at 100 with ease or regularity!




What zero distance did ya use? Thing is, the ballistic calculator will skew the results for fps drop by adjusting the launch angle to suit the zero distance based on velocity variation. I just downloaded that ballistic calculator and using a 10 yard zero got 0.22" vertical variation for 10fps at 100 yards. What we need to see is flat 0 degree launch angle and the vertical drop experienced under that condition. Unlike a ballistic calculator, your zero does not change shot to shot in concert with velocity variance in real life. Real life launch angle is constant, ballistic calculator skews to hit zero by adjusting launch angle to suit fps inputted.
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I zero for the distance i am shooting. So when shooting for 100M I am coming up 8" (32clicks) and (16 clicks respectively) for each rifle (RB wears a 1/8 click scope) from my 50m zero for xbull@100

Then I am simply aiming for the 8 or 9 (easiest to see in th escope) keeping the dot or xhair on the number and punching 10 shots into paper while keeping same POA.

When I shoot 50m groups, I zero for 50 and for 100 groups, I zero for 100 to keep as consistent as possible, and remove as much error as possible.

I am in the Kootenay region of BC, so if anyone feels up to it, feel free to stop by and let them loose.

I hate to refoul but I have had them soaking in wipeout for 30 hours now, and it's time to send a few patches down the bore. I am now out of tenex, and my rws lot is not consecutive, so I may need to wait until I find another lot that is consistent, that I can get enough of to complete another test.

The American Eagle lot I have is very very good, and I have enough to make some 50m and 100m targets with it. prefer 5 or 10 round groupings?
 
Got Juice? said:
2vuk9bs.jpg
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I wouldn't sell either one of those beauties. Fine rifles such as those come around very seldom in a man's life, and once gone, are gone forever.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
What you have to recognize here, is that the calculator changes the launch angle when you change the fps of the bullet, so that "0" is always hit at 50 yards. This change in launch angle to hit your 50 yard "0" skews how much the bullet will actually drop at 100 yards. If you set "0" at 100, the calculator will be showing you hitting "0" no matter the fps inputted. Following? In real life, once you have set a launch angle to hit "0" at 100 yards, there is no compensation in launch angle should the next round fired be of a different velocity. In real life, you will not hit the 50 yard "0" when your velocity varies, because your launch angle remains constant, unlike what the calculator is showing you.
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I understand what you're saying. The reason 50 can be used and still give illustrative results is that the change in POI at 50 is so small when there is a 10 fps MV difference as to become insignificant or meaningless. In other words, the POI at 50 is for our purposes close enough with a 10 - 20 fps MV difference to produce what would in effect be one bullet hole. Following that bullet out to 100 will show the drop resulting from the 10 or 20 fps reduction in MV. Indeed, no one regularly posting here will say that a 10 -- or even 20 -- fps MV difference at 50 yards can be distinguished on his target. None of us appear to be shooting custom BR rigs.

If you know of another way, please share it.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/velocity_dispersion.htm

I will leave that to a more qualified professional who has done such testing with a free-recoiling test rig.

The velocity dispersion test seems to support the idea that some "tuning" compensation is necessary and must be occurring for shooters to achieve high levels of accuracy with .22 LR.
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It's not clear that Kolbe's article and experiment provides a means to calculate bullet drop resulting from different MV's. The ballistics calculator provided in Chairgun, for example, allows shooters to see how much a bullet will drop at 100 yards (or any distance) when different muzzle velocities are entered.

If interested in this ballistics program, check it out. It's free and easy to use. Google Chairgun Pro. It can be downloaded at no cost.
 
Under the graph, in the second line of the paragraph under the heading: "Theoretical velocity dispersion", the line "the Trajectory program used" contains a link to his ballistics calculator. http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/trajectory.htm

His table will display the launch angle required (in MOA) to hit your zero distance, from this we can calculate the vertical due to velocity variance. I used ballistic coefficient values from here: http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/22rimfire.cfm and the value seems to vary with bullet speed.

I calculated a MV of 1040 with BC of 0.169 to require a launch angle of 17.8 MOA to hit 100 yard zero. MV 1030 = 18.1 MOA launch angle. If 1 MOA at 100 yards = 1.0472", dispersion = 1.0472" x 0.3 MOA = 0.31416" vertical dispersion for 10 fps velocity variance.

The difference between a 1080 fps MV and 1070 (BC 0.145) was calculated to be 0.20944" vertical. Makes sense as faster bullets have less overall drop given the same distance traveled.
 
I just got the tracking number for the rifle.......I'll see what I can do with it when it gets here.......

maybe ricky wants to shoot it, he was free handing a old lakefield and shooting my target at 278 yards trying to screw me up when I was shooting groups on the short range high power silhouette coarse........
 
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