Webley .455 Fiocchi observations

HeadDamage

HeadDamage

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Tried out some Fiocchi Webley .455 mkII ammo today.

Fired a couple rounds end on into some seasoned dry pine logs. I dug this one out and it still weighed 262.5 grains. Was shot at log from about 10feet.
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The penetration was limited. I don't know how well or not these rounds would work as a defensive load but I wouldn't want to be hit by one.
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Accuracy seems ok, this five shot group was shot at 10m using an old wobbly webley.
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HeadDamage said:
I don't know how well or not these rounds would work as a defensive load but I wouldn't want to be hit by one.
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IMHO, unless you just want to upset your intended target they would be absolute rubbish if you lived in the states and could use it as a defensive round. I chronnied them at 573 ft/sec and they performed very poorly(as you observed,poor penetration) when I last tried to dispatch a pig with them. The pigs deserved better, never again.
 
I grabbed a bunch of these rounds for a friend up north and have taken on a bit if education. All you will ever get out of this round is 600 or700 feet per second. This bullet was adopted by the British Military in the late 1890s with the change of black powder to cordite. Most of these guns are old and probably wouldn't take any more pressure. Newer or later guns made in in the US such as S&W might stand for higher pressures such as the 455colt (MK1)
 
I don't own and haven't fired one, but logic would suggest that the commercial ammo is loaded light because so many of the firearms chambered for it are old. I'd bet that they had an eye to lawsuits when they decided on the powder loading. If I had one, I'd get dies and reload. I'd gradually bring up the charge to what my revolver could safely handle and stick with that.
 
LawrenceN said:
I don't own and haven't fired one, but logic would suggest that the commercial ammo is loaded light because so many of the firearms chambered for it are old. I'd bet that they had an eye to lawsuits when they decided on the powder loading. If I had one, I'd get dies and reload. I'd gradually bring up the charge to what my revolver could safely handle and stick with that.
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Word round the interwebs is that fiocchi actually loads a bit hot for their webleys. Just an odd aside. I found it a little snappier, but I shoot light loads and only fired a couple of the fiocchis, so really no qualitative personal experience on the matter.
 
Those fiocchi bullets are harder than rocks. Measured 28 BHN on my hardness tester and that's way to hard for an antique webley for two reasons:
1. webleys are made from very soft steel and hard bullets wear harder on the rifling
2. hard bullets increase the pressure remarkably.
 
I used to shoot bowling pins at Phoenix Range back in the 1990's. A gent we shot with brought his Webley in .455.

We recovered one slug, about 3/4 buried in a bowling pin. He'd hit it square, so there was no deflection. It knocked the pin over, but had little effect otherwise.

Bloody difficult to defend an Empire with tools such as this.
 
Reminds me of the .32 Rimfire test I did, tried a bunch of .32, Shorts and Longs, and some of it wouldn't go through 3/8ths plywood, none of it made it through 2 sheets of 3/8ths ply when a .22 Short would handily from a 4.25" pistol barrel. .455 is no .32 RF, but speaking in generalities the vast majority of legal antique rounds were / are beyond anemic. It's a fun hobby but there aren't many power houses out there. .30 Mauser is likely the most potent of the original legal antiques with 85grs at 1450fps. .45 Schofield isn't too bad, and the .41 Colt will move 200grs at 750fps- still pretty darn mild but enough to put down livestock reliably. Shot a large steer with the .41 in the vitals, and it died cleanly.
 
Ardent said:
Reminds me of the .32 Rimfire test I did, tried a bunch of .32, Shorts and Longs, and some of it wouldn't go through 3/8ths plywood, none of it made it through 2 sheets of 3/8ths ply when a .22 Short would handily from a 4.25" pistol barrel. .455 is no .32 RF, but speaking in generalities the vast majority of legal antique rounds were / are beyond anemic. It's a fun hobby but there aren't many power houses out there. .30 Mauser is likely the most potent of the original legal antiques with 85grs at 1450fps. .45 Schofield isn't too bad, and the .41 Colt will move 200grs at 750fps- still pretty darn mild but enough to put down livestock reliably. Shot a large steer with the .41 in the vitals, and it died cleanly.
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The 32 RF reloads I did can easily go through 3/4 plywood and then through another 3/4 plywood 3 feet further behind it.
 
vviking said:
Yup, the highest I've yet gotten the Webley MK1 acp to chrono is 220's in the mid 600's.
The RR .44 Special can run 265's all the way up to 800fps.
It is what it is ... I don't push 'em too hard.
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Agreed and it was on my mind, however the .44 Special didn't debut until 1907, a nearly a full decade after the last legal antique. .44 Russian for sure, but loses some to the Special, while still being respectable. While there are a good few .44 Special conversions out there, not so sure that's going to last and a year and a half ago the RCMP was looking into closing the loophole on non pre-1898 chamberings. Haven't heard more since but I'm sure it's not forgotten, I just sincerely hope they don't axe the category in response to all the conversions to later cartridges, but I digress.

scianna54 said:
The 32 RF reloads I did can easily go through 3/4 plywood and then through another 3/4 plywood 3 feet further behind it.
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You found some exceptional .32 Rimfire, I believe it happened but that's a lot different than my experience. The fastest round I clocked, from a 3 1/2" and a 6" barrel, ran 637fps with 80gr bullet, the average over 20 rounds was just 372fps. The most potent powder charge on breaking down several different rounds was 2.0grs of smokeless. By and large I would not say it is much of a round, fun though. A .22 Short is likely more effective, and a .22LR certainly is.

Test below:

http://www.morrisonarms.com/2012/05/a-live-shoot-of-the-lovely-old-32-rimfire/

And the absolute best I saw, the 3/8" ply was an old doghouse I stapled the targets to, all but two ending up inside the doghouse.

While the ammunition was for the most part reliable even the best of these rounds, which were likely operating to full as manufactured specifications, they were extremely weak. Shooting targets on an old doghouse sheeted with 3/8” plywood, all rounds penetrated the front sheet of plywood, but only two of the more than a dozen rounds fired into the doghouse exited the back through the second sheet of 3/8” plywood when even a .22 Short did it no problem. 5/8” OSB was also shot, and only one round penetrated through the second board in the stack, a Dominion smokeless Short from the 6”
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Ardent said:
Agreed and it was on my mind, however the .44 Special didn't debut until 1907, a nearly a full decade after the last legal antique. .44 Russian for sure, but loses some to the Special, while still being respectable. While there are a good few .44 Special conversions out there, not so sure that's going to last and a year and a half ago the RCMP was looking into closing the loophole on non pre-1898 chamberings. Haven't heard more since but I'm sure it's not forgotten, I just sincerely hope they don't axe the category in response to all the conversions to later cartridges, but I digress.



You found some exceptional .32 Rimfire, I believe it happened but that's a lot different than my experience. The fastest round I clocked, from a 3 1/2" and a 6" barrel, ran 637fps with 80gr bullet, the average over 20 rounds was just 372fps. The most potent powder charge on breaking down several different rounds was 2.0grs of smokeless. By and large I would not say it is much of a round, fun though. A .22 Short is likely more effective, and a .22LR certainly is.

Test below:



And the absolute best I saw, the 3/8" ply was an old doghouse I stapled the targets to, all but two ending up inside the doghouse.



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I am hoarding 32 RF and Hornady 455 but only to satisfy people who don't want to reload. Even the 41 RF Navy Arms I have are a joke compared to the reloads. I was careless shooting them until I realized that they go for over $4/round, ouch. Now I keep them high and dry.
 
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cyclone said:
I think that a lot of the lower .45/.455 velocities in Webley revolvers are the result of :yingyang: , well :stirthepot2: , heavier bullets ?.....:wave:
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You are correct.
The orignal webley bullets are 265 Gr RN HB bullets i stoped useing them years ago.
All i use now are Keith type SWC 250 gr lead bullets sized .454 or .452 depending on bore dia of the gun or lighter bullets.
there accurate if loaded right and do really well with penatration tests depending on the load you use.

And as far as 32 rf goes i find most of the old factory ammo you buy is so old most of the rounds are not as good as when they were factory new to get decent shooting its best to reload the 32 Rf and the 41 Rf and the 38 Rf fresh. with the reloadable cases useing 22 rf blanks then they do very well.
To take ammo thats 40 or 80 years old and say all 32 Rf is gutless is abit much any ammo sitting around that long can be affected it depends how it was stored ect.
I have some 32 Rf copper cased domion ammo thats so hot i stoped useing it in my antiques it is like a 22 has a real crack to it and musta been a very fresh box the bullets are copper coated to not lead coloured i never seen another box of 32 rf ammo like it.
If you reload the 32 rf reloadable cases with fresh powder its alot better than old factory ammo thats dated.

455 webley cases can be reloaded with keith SWC bullets sized .452 and 250 gr weight or lighter.
The bores on most of the mKIs and MKIIs you see are not .455 there around .452 and not .455 unless you get one marked 455/476 which is a comercial model they can have bores of up to .460 dia grove to grove which is more what the HB .455 dia bullets are for.
Best to slug your bores before doing anything tho.

We ran some tests awhile back with home reloaded 32 Rf it was going 3 + inchs into wet hard fir firewood at 15 ft with round ball lead ammo and our reloads.
Im gona do some penatration tests with my 45 schofield and swc reloads later in the spring and see what there doing i know a 6 inch tree trunk they go right thru that. i will try them on firewood or log ends 16 inchs accross and then split them to see how there doing. Tho that all depends on how hard the logs are the test i see done the most is with pine boards set 1 inch apart so i might try that tho its alot of set up for one shot again it depends on the wood used if its dry wet hard or soft so can be misleading.
 
185 gr .453" SWC can be safely loaded at least 200 fps faster than the 250 gr bullets. I have some 185 gr loads that do an honest 850 fps in .45autorim out of a 4" MKI webley barrel, with quickload estimating pressure at under 12K. penetration and expansion are notably better than the heavier bullets. I have the same bullet in a hollow point version as well, haven't tried it yet.

It depends what your pistol likes - how the sights match your load, etc. In most cases with the webley revolvers, you need to find a load that will regulate somewhat close to your poi, because you can't adjust the sights. In most cases a faster lighter bullet shoots lower than a heavier slower bullet, and that's why i use the 185 gr load in some guns. In others the 265 RNHB is the answer. I'd rather hit what I aim at than have a more powerful load that misses. That's my theory at least.
 
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