Webley .45ACP - told pressure is all that matters?

[VintagePieces10]

Forgive my ignorance, but I’m looking for advice on loading 45ACP to a safe Webley (MK1) pressure (either smokeless or BP) and perhaps if anybody has one for actual .455 Webley, that too.

Although I’ve been shooting for many years, antique loads and black powder are something completely new to me. I have a chance to buy an antique Webley mk1 that has both a shaved 45 cylinder, and an original 455 Webley cylinder. I phoned rusty wood, and asked if a smokeless equivalent of 45acp to 455 specs is safe in an MK1 specifically. To my surprise, all he said was “well what pressures are we talking.” I said “well I’m not sure I haven’t loaded any. Most likely 3.5 grains of unique.” He said “that doesn’t give me pressure, and without knowing the pressure, I can’t help you.” So how do I find the pressure of a load (Yknow, before shooting it so I don’t blow up) since that’s the first step apparently, and if I have to run bp in 45ACP (as perhaps the mk1 is too weak for even light smokeless), how do I load it? Do I fill the entire case with bp like some other bp rounds? Or is that too much in a 45 case?

Appreciate the advice and look forward to learning!

 

[saskgunowner101]

First step is to look at a few reloading manuals to see what potential combo's you want to use are doing for pressure.

What velocity are you trying to nail? Try to do that with the slowest reasonable powder for the cartridge.

 

[VintagePieces10]

First step is to look at a few reloading manuals to see what potential combo's you want to use are doing for pressure.

What velocity are you trying to nail? Try to do that with the slowest reasonable powder for the cartridge.

Velocity doesn’t matter as much to me as safety. As such, if it’s an incredibly low velocity, that wouldn’t bother me at all as long as the load is safe. The jury seems to be out though if a MK1 is even safe with a small amount of smokeless powder.

 

[Snider shooter]

A lot of loading manuals have the pressure listed for many loads. The trick with using smokeless is using a load that is black powder equivalent, a safe load. Webley cases are available. Inter surplus usually has them in stock. 3.5 grs of unique with lead bullets 200 grs to 260 grs should be safe.
I use 5 grs with 255 gr bullet in my S/W Hand ejector, a stronger gun but many use the same load in the older Webleys.
Black powder is dirty but does work well in older cartridges with lower pressure ratings. I have loaded a few to try but decided to go the smokeless route.

 

[VintagePieces10]

A lot of loading manuals have the pressure listed for many loads. The trick with using smokeless is using a load that is black powder equivalent, a safe load. Webley cases are available. Inter surplus usually has them in stock. 3.5 grs of unique with lead bullets 200 grs to 260 grs should be safe.
I use 5 grs with 255 gr bullet in my S/W Hand ejector, a stronger gun but many use the same load in the older Webleys.
Black powder is dirty but does work well in older cartridges with lower pressure ratings. I have loaded a few to try but decided to go the smokeless route.

Hopefully the MK1 can handle it as that’s the load I’ve consistently seen crop up (3.5grs unique with lead) and probably the load I’ll use if it’s deemed safe (although I may use it in the 45ACP cartridge over the .455 webley). Black powder also seems like a different learning curve than I’m used to with smokeless powder.

 

[scianna54]

13,000 PSI is the pressure. Rustywood is a joker but we know that already. I don't like the guy (talked to him at gun shows) but he seems to be doing good work.

 

[Cpollock]

I've been starting down my reloading journey for my Webley MKII, and have gathered some info.

I've attached a photo of load data from the Lee Reloading Manual 1st Edition that should help.

Now, if anyone wants to let me know what powder charge I can safely use with a 200gr. bullet, that would be most helpful. I'm planning to buy one of these moulds down the line and start casting: https://www.mp-molds.com/product/455-webley-man-stopper-hollow-base-4-cavity-mold-457-cal/#reviews

First I need to slug the bore and chamber throats and get my exact measurements though.

 

[VintagePieces10]

13,000 PSI is the pressure. Rustywood is a joker but we know that already. I don't like the guy (talked to him at gun shows) but he seems to be doing good work.

I hope his work is better than his demeanour, as I’m keep to order from them. As for pressure, forgive my ignorance, is there a way to determine pressure before I fire it? Like if I run a 230gr lead bullet with 3.5 grains of smokeless powder, is there a way to determine pressure with that info alone?

 

[VintagePieces10]

I've been starting down my reloading journey for my Webley MKII, and have gathered some info.

I've attached a photo of load data from the Lee Reloading Manual 1st Edition that should help.

Now, if anyone wants to let me know what powder charge I can safely use with a 200gr. bullet, that would be most helpful. I'm planning to buy one of these moulds down the line and start casting: https://www.mp-molds.com/product/455-webley-man-stopper-hollow-base-4-cavity-mold-457-cal/#reviews

First I need to slug the bore and chamber throats and get my exact measurements though.

View attachment 959503

You don’t even know how unbelievably helpful this load data is. I’ve been trying to find something like this for EONS. Gold star to you.

 

[Pete04]

I hope his work is better than his demeanour, as I’m keep to order from them. As for pressure, forgive my ignorance, is there a way to determine pressure before I fire it? Like if I run a 230gr lead bullet with 3.5 grains of smokeless powder, is there a way to determine pressure with that info alone?

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has the info you seek on page 276 for 45 ACP.
All or most loads are under 13,000 CUP. Lead bullets from 160gr. to 230gr.
Costs around 30 bucks. 42 bucks on amazon.
Yes, Pressure Matters.

 

[Ex3dy]

Hopefully the MK1 can handle it as that’s the load I’ve consistently seen crop up (3.5grs unique with lead) and probably the load I’ll use if it’s deemed safe (although I may use it in the 45ACP cartridge over the .455 webley). Black powder also seems like a different learning curve than I’m used to with smokeless powder.

There are MKI & MKII revolvers and there are MKI & MKII ammo, MKI ammo was black powder and MKII ammo was cordite. I would not recommend taking load data for one type of case and using it in any other type of case. With a shaved cylinder I would want to go a bit lower on pressure than what the gun was originally designed to handle. jacketed bullets will push up the pressure.
45 autorim brass, black powder and cast lead bullets is a good place to start.
Some MKI were proofed for Nitro, what proof marks does yours have?

 

[VintagePieces10]

There are MKI & MKII revolvers and there are MKI & MKII ammo, MKI ammo was black powder and MKII ammo was cordite. I would not recommend taking load data for one type of case and using it in any other type of case. With a shaved cylinder I would want to go a bit lower on pressure than what the gun was originally designed to handle. jacketed bullets will push up the pressure.
45 autorim brass, black powder and cast lead bullets is a good place to start.
Some MKI were proofed for Nitro, what proof marks does yours have?

The one I’m looking at acquiring was an MK1 navy retrofit, with nitro proof stamp mark on the barrel.

 

[Cpollock]

Being mindful of the case type is important. As others have mentioned, there's a difference in the MKI and MKII .455 cartridges, with the latter having a shorter case length. My understanding is that the Nitro Proofed Marks are OK with the MKII cartridge loading.

 

[oneadam12]

Being mindful of the case type is important. As others have mentioned, there's a difference in the MKI and MKII .455 cartridges, with the latter having a shorter case length. My understanding is that the Nitro Proofed Marks are OK with the MKII cartridge loading.

I would add to this that a lot of the older cases are also balloon head and have more volume than the newer solid web ones. A glance inside will tell you what you have. Be aware of that with older load data.

 

[wasrupzuk]

Condition of the gun is number 1 before firing it. How is the barrel, cylinder, the lock up, the recoil plate, etc.
just because the outside takes a nice picture doesn’t necessarily mean it’s safe to fire even if it has proof marks.
Likely a good place to start from though, but remember these are not new guns.
Ask the current owner if they personally have shot it, and if so what was their ammunition or load.
If they haven’t shot it, or use factory 45ACP 230 hardball ammunition take that into consideration.
Factory 45ACP is considerably higher pressure than a 455 Webley so if they’re shooting that it’s like proof firing the gun every time so again take that into consideration.
Of the ones I’ve had the owners all shared a pet load.
Personally I’d avoid black powder, there’s no need for it and the extra cleaning and chance of corrosion isn’t worth it.
45ACP and 45 Autorim brass and new Webley brass work great - if you have the spacer for the Webley. I prefer 45ACP on moon clips.
I wouldn’t recommend running any factory 45ACP or any jacketed ammunition in it. The wear they could create isn’t worth it IMO.
45ACP is .451” diameter, Webley 455 is .454” diameter.
I prefer using the Webley lead soft cast .454” 265 grain bullets. They load easily in 45ACP or autorim cases and work great.

Update: checked my reloading journal, it’s been awhile…no idea where I got 770 from…maybe my wife’s light loads for her 1911 (?).
45ACP for my Webley mk1’s (I had 2 and got stupid and sold one…)
Unique powder.
The 265 grain hollow base lead soft cast bullets were not 265 grains, they were much closer to 260. In a 10 round sampling the high was 262.3 and the low was 259.8. Better than being heavier I guess…
COAL was 1.45” +/- .010” due to casting irregularities.
Federal large pistol primers.
Given the above, and in only my guns which are/were in excellent condition with tight lock up I tried the following, I do not suggest you do. Start low and work up, possibly try a different powder. You have been warned, don’t be stupid.
Loaded on Lee PRO1000 using the 46 disc (4.2 grains) on 12 rounds averaged 473 fps or 125 power factor. Hi 504, low 442, es =62. Results were soft recoil, no leading, cool cylinder and barrel but a very dirty bore and cylinder. 10 yards produced 95% A hits (point of aim) in double action and function was 100%.
Generally increasing powder from this point saw the gun run cleaner but less accurate and stiffer recoil, also the latch screw would eventually work loose (that’s a bad sign).
I tried other loads with Unique, some with more powder and some with a slightly shorter COAL. Some performed well, most didn’t and one made major power factor (660+ fps) but was real snappy an after initial testing hasn’t been used since as they are antique guns…
I would still like to play with a fluffy powder like trail boss but haven’t been able to find it.
Have fun, be safe.

 

[apu]

I have shot 265 grain lead projectiles with up to 4.2 grain of unique in my former MK2, its lets say pretty spicey. If you value your Webley keep your loads under 4 grain with that size of bullet.

 

[VintagePieces10]

I have shot 265 grain lead projectiles with up to 4.2 grain of unique in my former MK2, its lets say pretty spicey. If you value your Webley keep your loads under 4 grain with that size of bullet.

I’ll probably keep my rounds to 200-230 grain with 3.5 powder. I’m not looking for max performance, just looking to safely ping some steel at 25 years with an old workhorse webley

 

[VintagePieces10]

Condition of the gun is number 1 before firing it. How is the barrel, cylinder, the lock up, the recoil plate, etc.
just because the outside takes a nice picture doesn’t necessarily mean it’s safe to fire even if it has proof marks.
Likely a good place to start from though, but remember these are not new guns.
Ask the current owner if they personally have shot it, and if so what was their ammunition or load.
If they haven’t shot it, or use factory 45ACP 230 hardball ammunition take that into consideration.
Factory 45ACP is considerably higher pressure than a 455 Webley so if they’re shooting that it’s like proof firing the gun every time so again take that into consideration.
Of the ones I’ve had the owners all shared a pet load.
Personally I’d avoid black powder, there’s no need for it and the extra cleaning and chance of corrosion isn’t worth it.
45ACP and 45 Autorim brass and new Webley brass work great - if you have the spacer for the Webley. I prefer 45ACP on moon clips.
I wouldn’t recommend running any factory 45ACP or any jacketed ammunition in it. The wear they could create isn’t worth it IMO.
45ACP is .451” diameter, Webley 455 is .454” diameter.
I prefer using the Webley lead soft cast .454” 265 grain bullets. They load easily in 45ACP or autorim cases and work great.

Update: checked my reloading journal, it’s been awhile…no idea where I got 770 from…maybe my wife’s light loads for her 1911 (?).
45ACP for my Webley mk1’s (I had 2 and got stupid and sold one…)
Unique powder.
The 265 grain hollow base lead soft cast bullets were not 265 grains, they were much closer to 260. In a 10 round sampling the high was 262.3 and the low was 259.8. Better than being heavier I guess…
COAL was 1.45” +/- .010” due to casting irregularities.
Federal large pistol primers.
Given the above, and in only my guns which are/were in excellent condition with tight lock up I tried the following, I do not suggest you do. Start low and work up, possibly try a different powder. You have been warned, don’t be stupid.
Loaded on Lee PRO1000 using the 46 disc (4.2 grains) on 12 rounds averaged 473 fps or 125 power factor. Hi 504, low 442, es =62. Results were soft recoil, no leading, cool cylinder and barrel but a very dirty bore and cylinder. 10 yards produced 95% A hits (point of aim) in double action and function was 100%.
Generally increasing powder from this point saw the gun run cleaner but less accurate and stiffer recoil, also the latch screw would eventually work loose (that’s a bad sign).
I tried other loads with Unique, some with more powder and some with a slightly shorter COAL. Some performed well, most didn’t and one made major power factor (660+ fps) but was real snappy an after initial testing hasn’t been used since as they are antique guns…
I would still like to play with a fluffy powder like trail boss but haven’t been able to find it.
Have fun, be safe.

I don’t plan on running factory. I am well aware of the risks. Mine is an mk1** navy retrofit that comes with both a shaved cylinder and an original cylinder, and has an mk4 barrel. I appreciate the load data too, as finding is a mix of lots of data but then another thread will contradict that data with something else. So I’ll probably err on the side of caution and run 3.5 grains with a 200-230 grain bullet

 

[tiriaq]

I’ll probably keep my rounds to 200-230 grain with 3.5 powder. I’m not looking for max performance, just looking to safely ping some steel at 25 years with an old workhorse webley

Be careful shooting steel with heavy bullets at low velocity. They probably won't fragment and may well bounce back. Make sure the steel is angled to deflect bullets down.

 

[VintagePieces10]

Be careful shooting steel with heavy bullets at low velocity. They probably won't fragment and may well bounce back. Make sure the steel is angled to deflect bullets down.

Thank you for the safety tip, I actually hadn’t thought of that. Most of the steel at my range is hung completely vertical, so it probably wouldn’t be safe.