Webley #### and Reloading data

Thanks guys, I'll give it a go.

As you can imagine, my cases will be pretty empty regardless of the amount of powder I use. Anyone use wads or fillers? My local gun shop recommended I stuff in a single square of toilet paper over the powder charge...
 
Hangfire said:
Can you use 45 Schofield cases in a 476/455 cal. WG without shortening the case or thinning the rim?
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I can in mine, it's the 1889 model with the long church-steeple cylinder. Based on what others have said here, it can vary even within a particular model and the only way to know if .45 Schofield headspaces correctly is to try it with your particular gun.
 
Just an update on some new chrony results shooting the 255 grain flat nosed bullet infront of Unique powder in the MKII hornady brass. Ambient temp 14 degrees, OAL was 1.10 inches

Average results were as follows:

5.2 grains of powder - 620 ft/secs calculated energy 218 ft/lbs
5.6 grain - 710 ft/sec calculated energy 285 ft/lbs


From past trial the 265 grain HBRN bullet with 1.26 inch OAL in MKII brass will see almost identical speeds I suspect likely owing to slight volume increase with the hollow base. Also appreciate decreasing your OAL will increase your pressure/speeds with equivilant powder loads.

So 5.2 grain of Unique at stated OAL in MKII brass mimics "factory" spec. 5.6 grain is pushing it a bit too much at 29% above standard 455 pressure.

The following is an intresting thread suggesting 9-12 inches of ballistic gel penetration at factory spec speeds.
 
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So I was pondering the now difficult to find Webley 455 "Manstopper" bullet and recently came across a Lyman "devestator" series bullet mould and thought why not try whipping up a new 455 hollow point round. I have to point out I am not planning on any man stopping this is just for pure interest and paper target stopping. :)

Gentleman I give to you the results... a 180 grain hollow point bullet sized to .454 inches ready to fire out of your favourite Webley. Now you would likely get poor expansion at factory speed of 630ft/sec (for the 265 grain bullet) but assuming similar muzzle energy (225 ft/lbs) you could likely and safely be able to push velocity of the 180 grain bullet to a minimum 750ft/sec and possibly as high as 800ft sec and remain under proof pressures for the Webley. Assuming some relatively soft lead (20:1 lead/tin)you might just see some decent expansion. I understand the original manstopper was a 218 grain bullet(12:1) moving at 700 ft/sec (237 ft/lbs) to mimic similar energy levels this would roughly translate to a speed of 775 ft /sec for a 180 grain pill.

Update- chrony of the 180 grain HP OAL 1.10 with MKII brass and 6 grain Unique shows average 740 ft/sec, while it had good penetration the retreived bullets only showed mild expansion(second photo), .52 -.6 inches diameter ( at minimum a 50 cal hole ).

6.5 grain brought the speed up to an average of 825 ft/sec or alternatively stated 17.5% (~2,000 psi)above standard Webley 455 pressures= 455+1/3P :)

Bottom picture illustrates the signifigantly improved expansion at .7-.85 inches. At 15 yards this last load was printing near perfect point of aim and accuracy was exceptional with groups in the 3 inch range. Penetration was very good - 24 inches of water (four 6 inch water filled milk jugs) which is apparently equivalent to approximately 12 inchs of ballistics gel. This load/bullet definetly lives up to the bullet mould moniker of "devestator".

Important disclaimer- load data presented here is for novel informational purposes only, I don't advocate use any of this information in any way. Just because my gun did not blow up does not mean yours won't, any use of this information with a 110+ year war relic is totally at your own risk.

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cyclone said:
No .45ACP shotshell's?.....:evil:
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Hmm, I wonder what kind of spread you would get out of a 4 inch barrel at partridge range?:p

I got another - how about 455 RNHB glue bullets no powder just powered by primer, wonder what the muzzle energy is on those bad boys :nest:
 
well under 500 ft/sec
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I once chronied 5 grains in a schofield case and IIRC the numbers were in the mid 400s!
The extra grain or 2 makes a big diffrence.

If you want a 'man stopper' just flip around a 265 grain HB bullet.
 
apu said:
So I was pondering the now difficult to find Webley 455 "Manstopper" bullet and recently came across a Lyman "devestator" series bullet mould and thought why not try whipping up a new 455 hollow point round....
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Have just acquired a MkVI and will be loading for it in the New Year. I see that NEI makes a .454 dia. 230 gr, RNFP hollow-base bullet (#323A) that might be useful in a Webley.

BTW, apu, does your Mk II have Metford or Enfield rifling?

:) Stuart
 
I don't beleive any of the MK webleys had anything but enfield type rifling, Even my WG which predates even a MKI by quite abit has the standard "non glock" rifling. Congrats on your fine revolver aquisition :)
 
Interesting topic.

I had, (although recently sold) an WG 1892 in .476 Enfield. Full length .45 Schofield cases would fit the chambers, but I had to thin the rims.
The bore on this gun slugged out at .466". The cylinder throats were .460".
I found a guy that had an old discontinued Lyman #457195 hollow base 225 gr. mold. He cast me up 100 of these and they came out of the mold at .460". I had them lube sized to .458". I found out later this bullet was actually designed for the .450 round.
I wanted a half decent load density, so after some reading on the use of 4198 powder in antique handgun loads by CGN member win3855, I ended up with a load that used 18grs. in the Schofield case and taper crimped the bullet. Velocity out of the WG's 6" barrel was nominally 750fps with probably half of the 18grs of 4198 coming out the barrel unburnt. Pressure was quite low, so low in fact, that is the reason for the taper crimp. When I was developing the load for 4198 powder, I found it didn't have enough of a pressure peak to blow out the roll crimp I initially used. Accuracy was poor, as the crimp in the case was scraping off lead before the bullet even hit the Cylinder throat. Consequently, accuracy sucked. The later taper crimp versions solved that problem, and would shoot into a nice 2.7" group @ 25m at point of aim.

For my Mk2 Webley, I use both 455 mk1, and mk2 cases. I have had the best results so far with Mk2 cases and the cast lead 255gr "cowboy" bullets sized at .452". For powder, I use a load of 6 grs of Blue Dot and seat to the crimp groove. Velocity came out at 650fps. Loads for the mk1 cases are still in the development phase.

I too have had the dreaded "print to the left" syndrome common to many Webley's. Some of The WG target model revolvers had a milled groove in the top, back edge of the stirrup latch. Into this groove was inserted a blade with a target notch. This blade could be drifted left or right to change the windage. This blade was very thin, so as to not appreciably weaken the stirrup latch itself. I suppose a "good" gunsmith could make this mod if someone wanted. Should probably stick to milder target loads though, just to be safe.

Again, good topic.
 
Jakester, I have to echo you experience with 4198, it's a interesting powder to try but it is not my go to smokeless powder for small cartridge reloads including schofield brass. I still like 4198 for 50/70, 11mm mauser and 45/70 but for the pistols I am primarily using unique, trailboss or black powder. I also agree my best Webley reloads come with flat nose, flat base cowboy(keith)style reloads. The hollow points shoot fine as well, but I have no luck with the original Webley style round nose hollow base bullets. Incidentally, my model 1896, 455/476 marked WG shoots like a laser, no windage problems or pie pan sized groups like my MKII. Frankly the MKs were mass produced military weapons meant for last resort short range contact presumably because your rifle was not available, so I am not surprised with their accuracy. In general WGs are substantially superior firearms especially the latter models.

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apu said:
wwg2.jpg
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Some might quibble about that pistol being refinished, but it is simply gorgeous! When the weather improves I must get my MK VI out to the range for a proper session. I have a box of the original-style HBRN bullets but have only fired a few of them. I'd love to try some soft-lead Keith-style bullets in mine.

:)Stuart

As to being for "last resort short range contact presumably because your rifle was not available", I believe revolvers were only issued to officers, who wouldn't carry a rifle in any case.
 
There is no question it's refinished and I have no qualms about that. I spent very good coin and considerable effort towards faithful restoration of the original high gloss charcoal finish. It was done by one of a few gunsmiths in the US that can do it properly. Fortunately the furniture and mechanics are in good nick and required no additional attention.

Incidentally as a point of interest, handguns were not only issued to commissioned officers and NCOs, but also naval troops, airmen and soldiers who might have awkward/limited access to rifles such as machine gun crews, military police or tank crews. :D


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I wonder if refinishing a mkI or mkII (that needed some tlc from a smith anyway) would hurt the value of one in the Canadian market? Would parking one be a crime?
 
APU: I have to admit, I was looking for another powder to use as so much of the 4198 was being wasted, but I ended up selling the "WG" instead as someone offered the "right" price and I couldn't refuse.
The 4" barrels used on the mk's 1 through 4 really hamper their ability to produce a bullet speed even close to 700 FPS with the 265gr hollow base slug. I have some original Canadian issue .455 rounds from the 1920's, and I shot a few over the crony to get an idea what the period smokeless rounds were capable of. They could only manage an average of 565 FPS from a 4" barrel. Perhaps that's why Webley went with a 6" barrel on the mk6. When I tried a few through the aforementioned "WG", they hit about 605 FPS average.

I have used Unique with both the mk1 and mk2 cases, although I prefer the Blue Dot as it burns slower in this application and the pressure peak doesn't spike as much as Unique when you get close to a max load.

You definitely have a nice "WG"


apu said:
Jakester, I have to echo you experience with 4198, it's a interesting powder to try but it is not my go to smokeless powder for small cartridge reloads including schofield brass. I still like 4198 for 50/70, 11mm mauser and 45/70 but for the pistols I am primarily using unique, trailboss or black powder. I also agree my best Webley reloads come with flat nose, flat base cowboy(keith)style reloads. The hollow points shoot fine as well, but I have no luck with the original Webley style round nose hollow base bullets. Incidentally, my model 1896, 455/476 marked WG shoots like a laser, no windage problems or pie pan sized groups like my MKII. Frankly the MKs were mass produced military weapons meant for last resort short range contact presumably because your rifle was not available, so I am not surprised with their accuracy. In general WGs are substantially superior firearms especially the latter models.

wwg2.jpg
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I think you answered your own questions as to why the pistol was shooting horizontal strings. This is often the case when velocity is to slow for the twist rate.

Another issue with the hollowbase bullets is the skirts may be thicker on one side. This would open up the goups in all directions though. It happened with one of my moulds.

These old girls are fun to shoot and very interesting as to their history and where they traveled since their manufacture.

I was lucky with my early nickle plated MkIII. A fellow in the US, has the sales records of the Army Navy Collective Society. That's how, with the help of John from Wolverine Sports, I was able to prove it was made prior to 1898.

My pistol is marked with a winged, hollow based bullet. Presumably to show the bullet it was designed for. It is also marked .476/.455. This indicates it will safely fire both the .476 round and .455 round I'm presuming. The bore measurements certainly don't come close to those figures. It slugs out to .461 and I cast the hollow base bullets accordingly. I have a .458 marked mould that throws an unsized bullet at .462.

These work well but because of their heavy weight and slow velocities, they also have a tendency to string horizontally.

I've tried solid base bullets with the pistol, sized to the bore but the groups just open up. I've been using pure lead and am looking forward to using some harder bullets when it warms up. Getting to be a bit of a wuss in my old age.

That is a lovely pistol by the way. Whoever did the job, was very good. Getting such a smooth overall polish on a pistol frame/barrel/cylinder is difficult to say the least.

Like it or not, some of these old girls are relatively common and their exteriors are poor at best. I don't have any issues with dressing the old girl up in such cases.
 
Anyone trying 2400 in the 45 Schofield cases ?
Its supose to have a nice presure curve like BP but not the mess and good groups to.
Elmer keith used it alot in the 45 colt and 44 special.
His max loads are no good for break action type guns like the WG but the DA 1878 Colts handle it according to keith in six guns.
I have a couple DA 1878s set up in 45 schofield so was thinking of playing around abit more with the 2400.
There nice guns (the 1878 Colts)as there chamber walls have no stop notchs to blow out.
 
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