Webley fail-to-fire in double-action

[braun]

My 1889 WG works fine in single-action, but in double-action about 50% of the hammer strikes fail to ignite the primer. Second or third try works fine. I'm using primed cases (Winchester LP) without bullets or powder.

The hammer-strikes on the primers are off-centre but seem fairly deep in both SA and DA. I should point out that the double-action feels a bit mushy with the primed cases, not crisp like when I use snap caps.

Is this a mainspring issue or is something else going on?

cheers,
Greg

 

[mooncoon]

It sounds more like some sort of friction problem with the double action linkage. If the firing pin strikes the same spot in both single and double action, that cannot be an issue. Try pulling the trigger quite sharply in double action --- that should ensure that the cocking linkage of the double action should be more clear as the hammer falls

cheers mooncoon

 

[DEZ]

The off center strikes makes me think, is the bolt locking up the cylinder in double action well?

 

[BUSHMAN79]

The off center strikes makes me think, is the bolt locking up the cylinder in double action well?

I think you are on the right track. I had a well worn Mk.VI once, and in double action fire, the cylinder would often skip a little past the locking bolt. It was fairly easy to fix. If it isn't that, it could be the mainspring. The hammer is not drawn back as far in double action shooting as it is in single action. If your mainspring is weak, DA is where it really shows.

 

[DEZ]

I was thinking about the bolt it is a funny little sprung piece that works like a see saw in the wgs I have had to make a couple not fun and repaired Grants WG it is the weak link in the WG usually the WG will fire fine most of the time in single but timing goes to poo in double if this is broken some pics would help of the firing pin as these are long skinny things that have a long hooked beak and I have seen them shortened or bent to one side and in double you don't get as powerful a strike if the firing pin is short no bang I have fixed a few buy making a nose cap of metal shaped to slip just over the existing firing pin and used low fusing silver solder to add it on .

 

[dingus]

Just like to point out i think shooting DA Antiques in DA is harder on them than SA.
Still i think they should work in DA i just rarely shoot DA as it puts more strain on the parts.
I will look in my Webley book it shows a picture of a 1889 WG action.

My guess is when the trigger is pulled back the part that lifts the hammer is letting it fall to soon. it could just be a worn part but i will have to look in my book later as WGs have diffrent type actions.

 

[braun]

Thanks for all the comments. The cylinder locks up fairly tight, no wiggling when the bolt is engaged.

The firing pin is in fact a bit bent...I figured since the strikes appeared deep it wasn't a big deal. I'll post some pics later.

 

[dingus]

If you can do it post a picture with that Side cover OFF so we can see inside the action.
Other wise its just us all guessing.

 

[tiriaq]

When the hammer is cocked double action does it come back as far as when it is thumb cocked? The DA hammer stroke may be shorter, and have less energy.
If the firing pin is a bit bent, is it striking the frame when it passes through the hole?
You may need a new mainspring.
What primers are you using? Some may be harder to ignite.

 

[Goonsquad]

If you need a mainspring, try ellwood epps, it took me nearly 4 months of searching to find one for my Mark VI. I even had one come in from Numrich gunparts that was not correct, but I sent epps a few photos and they had me sorted in 3 days.

That should save you some footwork, should you decide to get a new spring.

 

[anchor3593]

Something to check - do the bullets drop in and hit with a solid smack - if there is crud buildup, it cushions the impact of the firing pin/hammer as the case is driven home by the hammer. Crud under the extractor star could do the same - I would think - though I have no experience with that occurring in that particular gun.

Primers left a little proud of the case might do the same.

 

[braun]

Here are the pictures of the action and firing pin - gotta go do Chiristmas stuff, enjoy the holidays everybody.

cheers,
Greg

 

[dingus]

Well everything looks good in them pics not heavy wear or anything it looks ex in there,

Im my book it shows this action as the 1885 Action but im sure it was used in the 1889 models.

With the side plate off like that and the Hammer down very carefully slowley squeeze the trigger in DA and watch the Lifter arm as it lifts the hammer back.
Watch if its slipping off the hammer to soon makeing the hammer stroke Shorter than it should be.
If its a shorter stroke than it should be look for worn or Rounders edges where the Lifter and hammer engage.
Tho it looks good in the pics.

The hammers tip does look a little more bent that it should be right near the tip but if its hitting the primers in SA and fireing them i doubt thats the problem tho the DA stroke is way shorter.
Could be its hitting or rubing on the frame somewhere as it passes thru the hole in the frame.
Mark the Fireing pin tip all up with Black felt pen right back to the hammer then let it dry and then fire it a few times Slowley letting the hammer down and see if theres any marks on the hammer tips black felt pen coating, if there is its rubbing and that can cause your problem.

 

[dingus]

My 1889 WG works fine in single-action, but in double-action about 50% of the hammer strikes fail to ignite the primer. Second or third try works fine. I'm using primed cases (Winchester LP) without bullets or powder.

The hammer-strikes on the primers are off-centre but seem fairly deep in both SA and DA. I should point out that the double-action feels a bit mushy with the primed cases, not crisp like when I use snap caps.

Is this a mainspring issue or is something else going on?

cheers,
Greg

I just Read this Again your useing Empty case with no bullets or powder i see.

The Primers can back outa the Primer pockets when fired like this.
Before you do anything to the gun try a few normal fully loaded cartridges.

and you should be useing Large pistol primers Winchesters work great for me in loaded cases before you look at the gun haveing problems.

I missed that when i frist read your post.
The Inerita of a loaded case seems to make a diffrence in some guns i think its the Weight of the bullet.

 

[braun]

When the hammer is cocked double action does it come back as far as when it is thumb cocked? The DA hammer stroke may be shorter, and have less energy.
If the firing pin is a bit bent, is it striking the frame when it passes through the hole?

The DA hammer stroke is definitely shorter. The firing pin is also hitting the frame - there is a little lipping around the hole the pin passes through in the breech face. I bent the firing pin back a *tiny* bit and the fit was much better. After one pull of the trigger with a snap cap the pin was bent again.

Under magnification I can see a tiny hairline fracture on the pin that has been there since I got the revolver. I had thought it was discolouration of the steel until I looked at it under a lense today...

Is this a silver-solder job or does the whole firing pin need to be rebuilt (or sleeved like DEZ suggested)?

 

[braun]

Something to check - do the bullets drop in and hit with a solid smack - if there is crud buildup, it cushions the impact of the firing pin/hammer as the case is driven home by the hammer. Crud under the extractor star could do the same - I would think - though I have no experience with that occurring in that particular gun.

Primers left a little proud of the case might do the same.

It looks pretty clean, no buildup anywhere. I wondered about the primers, I can't seem to seat them the few thou below flush that is required. But seeing as the SA primer strikes are perfect, I think the primer seating is probably ok.

 

[braun]

If you need a mainspring, try ellwood epps, it took me nearly 4 months of searching to find one for my Mark VI. I even had one come in from Numrich gunparts that was not correct, but I sent epps a few photos and they had me sorted in 3 days.

That should save you some footwork, should you decide to get a new spring.

Good to know, thanks. Do they have a source or did they make it themselves?

 

[braun]

I just Read this Again your useing Empty case with no bullets or powder i see.

The Primers can back outa the Primer pockets when fired like this.
Before you do anything to the gun try a few normal fully loaded cartridges.

and you should be useing Large pistol primers Winchesters work great for me in loaded cases before you look at the gun haveing problems.

I missed that when i frist read your post.
The Inerita of a loaded case seems to make a diffrence in some guns i think its the Weight of the bullet.

Alright, I'll give it a try some time. Yes, I'm using Winchester Large Pistol primers because I heard they were a little hotter and worked better in large, empty cases (I'm using unaltered .45 Schofield brass).

This WG might look familiar to you Dingus, you owned it once!

 

[dingus]

Alright, I'll give it a try some time. Yes, I'm using Winchester Large Pistol primers because I heard they were a little hotter and worked better in large, empty cases (I'm using unaltered .45 Schofield brass).

This WG might look familiar to you Dingus, you owned it once!

I thought so but wasnt 100% sure.
The gun always fired when i had it but i only shoot my guns SA as i said DA is harder on the old guns.
Id Stop useing them Snap caps to eh.
The guns fireing pin is designed to shoot 455 Cases not 45 Schofields.
45 Schofield is way thicker rim than 455 you should get them rims thined to 455 Thickness.

Them snap caps (im guessing 45 colt) are bending the fireing pin tip because there to thick and are made designed for modern guns with hardened steel fireing pins.
Thats most likely how you cracked the fireing pin. or shooting the primed empty 45 schofield cases.
When you straitened it did you just pound on it or heat it up then straiten it?

You can straiten the pin out again then Silver soder the crack .
but Silver braze would be better.
Maby get someone good and profesional to do that.
then Dont keep shooting modern thick rimed Snap caps and empty thick rimed primed cases eh

 

[DEZ]

Clean the crack with a bead blaster if you can then flux the poo out of it if it goes black it won't take the solder so lots of flux and quick steady hands . If you have never soldered before I would Do it for you I'm no gun smith Just a dental technition I solder a fair bit . PM me if you need help