Webley question

JimmieA.

Regular
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
I am interested in purchasing a Webley Mark IV-VI and a Mark I or II at a later time. I started out looking for the .455 calibre but have seen the .38 S&W a lot cheaper. I do not have a 12(6). I have just finished reading a book written about this gun and it basically doesn't even mention the .38 S&W (.38/200) calibre which came out just around WWII. I guess a person can purchase new ammo for either gun at a cost, .38 maybe a little easier. I guess I look at this purchase as a nice to have, no intention to pay $1200 for a Mark VI example that is barely shootable, trigger pull of over 10#. The Mark IVs I have seen in .38 S&W is listed at $350-$500 at an expensive reseller. I realize that a real antique gun is a lot more expensive.

Looking for peoples opinions that know about these guns. Opinions about the two calibers as well. I am a little confused about the various .455 ammo as well, as it changed a half dozen times. If I'm correct the Enfield gun is a close copy but not the same gun at all? I don't need these guns just a want/nice to have if the cost is reasonable. This model of firearm is an important part of our history, similar to the 1911 in the USA. Thanks in advance.
 
As you write, you cannot buy a Webley in 38, they are prohibited, even f you would have a 12(6) you would not get an ATT. Better post your question in the antique froum below. Trigger pull is only heavy in DA, most people shoot SA, a Mark VI doesn't sell at $1,200, maybe some people ask for that but they are realistically between $400 and $700. I have seen a beautiful one last year at the gunshow in Kamloops for $400.
 
As you write, you cannot buy a Webley in 38, they are prohibited, even f you would have a 12(6) you would not get an ATT. Better post your question in the antique froum below. Trigger pull is only heavy in DA, most people shoot SA, a Mark VI doesn't sell at $1,200, maybe some people ask for that but they are realistically between $400 and $700. I have seen a beautiful one last year at the gunshow in Kamloops for $400.

Ahh..I have a Webley MkIV that 38 S&W 1942 War finish with a 5 inch barrel.
 
As for the .455 versus .38 part of your question: it depends a lot on what you want such a revolver for ..... from a historical perspective, the .455's are the earliest (introduced in the 1870's and 1880's and continuing as the primary-issue British military handgun caliber into the 1920's) The .38/.380 revolver cartridge was adopted after that .... and the primary British-issue military revolver chambering that round was actually the Enfield No. 2 revolver ... which, as a top-break design, is somewhat similar to a Webley, but not identical by any means. Webley revolvers were also used as "secondary issue" during WWII, however.

From a strictly Canadian military history perspective, it amazes me that so few people know that this country has never had any Webley revolver design (or any other British design, for that matter) as its primary-issue military handgun - rather, they have always been American designs! (One minor exception: the RCAF adopted the .38 Enfield in the 1930's .... but the numbers of those acquired were literally only in the hundreds ..... "Minor" because the true primary-issue handgun for Canadian military personnel during WWII was the Smith & Wesson Military & Police Model revolver, of which Canada acquired over 118,000 according to Clive Law in "Canadian Military Handguns, 1855-1985" ....)

For a Canadian military-issue revolver of the 20th Century, think Smith & Wesson! For WWI, it was the S&W Hand Ejector chambered in .455 -
smith06.jpg


.... and for WWII, its "little brother" - the S&W M&P chambered in .38 -
sampwmampp06_zpsd5242e2b.jpg
 
There were some Colt revolvers in .38/200 as well, my Grandfather carried one through WW2 in the Canadian Army. It looks nearly identical to the S&W in your photo, it was a Colt Official Police with a 5" barrel.
 
As you write, you cannot buy a Webley in 38, they are prohibited, even f you would have a 12(6) you would not get an ATT. Better post your question in the antique froum below. Trigger pull is only heavy in DA, most people shoot SA, a Mark VI doesn't sell at $1,200, maybe some people ask for that but they are realistically between $400 and $700. I have seen a beautiful one last year at the gunshow in Kamloops for $400.

Sorry... what? Why is a Webley in .38 (anything) prohibited? Barrel length? Even with a prohibited barrel length and IF the guy has a 12(6), why would he not get an ATT?

:confused::confused::confused:
 
Thanks for the response. I didn't realize that the Webley wasn't issued to Canadians. In terms of the history I feel more related to the British than the Americans. I guess I think the Webley has enough historic value to want to try to get a Mark IV-VI and than a Mark I or II. I want to get an antique hand gun that has a more or less modern cartridge. I cannot afford a Colt SAA so the Webley seems like a good choice interms of price and availability.
 
If you're planning on shooting them much at all the trick would be to get into reloading your own ammo if you don't already do so. Neither cartridge is at all common in the stores. And if you do find any the price would be prohibitive to enjoying the guns for more than a box or three a year. On the other hand for reloaded ammo your cost per 50 drops to somewhere around $12 for the .455 and a little under $10 for .38S&W. And even cheaper if you cast your own bullets. Look around and do the math. I think you'll quickly agree that the cost of a modest reloading setup that can go away in a closet when not being used looks pretty darn good if you intend to shoot these guns on any sort of reasonable basis.
 
...I cannot afford a Colt SAA so the Webley seems like a good choice interms of price and availability.

Unless you're intent on only owning the real things the modern replicas from Uberti and Pietta are darn nice shooting guns. If you have an itch for the classic 1873 platform one of these copies would scratch that itch until you have the coin to purchase a genuine antique Colt.
 
I reload now. I guess I'm leaning toward the .455 as the setup would work for the Mark IV and the Mark I-II model. I would have to get the brass, the lead form, and the rest though.
 
I reload now. I guess I'm leaning toward the .455 as the setup would work for the Mark IV and the Mark I-II model. I would have to get the brass, the lead form, and the rest though.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I think anyone who is into handgun shooting, at some point in time in their 'career', should own & shoot a Webley. With that in mind, I picked up a Mk VI

455WebleyMarkVI.jpg


and run the odd batch of reloads through it.

455Webleyloadinfobullet.jpg


The cast bullet I use is very similar to the one I've circled and one I get from a friend locally. The data is the basis of loads I use and from a 1st edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
 
Sorry... what? Why is a Webley in .38 (anything) prohibited? Barrel length? Even with a prohibited barrel length and IF the guy has a 12(6), why would he not get an ATT?

:confused::confused::confused:

The OP is misinformed, if you have a 12(6) license you surely can get a ATT if you have a range membership. Another common misconception is that people with a Collectors endorsement on their license can't get an ATT to shoot their collectable 12(6) firearms at a approved range - also false.

These incorrect opinions surface again and again on this site for some reason. It is just the poor guys with prohibited 12(2) thru 12(5) class who are arbitrarily denied ATT's for their firearms. This CFO policy is unjustified in my opinion and should be struck down - there is no valid reason why they should not be able to take these guns to approved ranges.
 
I take it form your more recent postings that you specifically want a "prescribed antique" handgun. If so, then you must definitely go with a military-issue revolver chambered for one of the earlier cartridges of what I call the ".455 Family", for want of a better term, in reference to the "big three" of the self-contained British service revolver cartridges of the 19th Century ..... namely the .450 Adams (1868), the .455.476 Enfield (1880) and the .455 Webley (1891). I call them that because, notwithstanding their apparent caliber designations, all three were actually .455 caliber! (I suspect that this may be the origin of at least part of the puzzlement reflected in your statement: "I am a little confused about the various .455 ammo as well, as it changed a half dozen times.")

Examine the following diagrams of various service revolver bullet and cartridge case patterns, which give the official British War Department specifications for each item ..... Although not all of the dimensions are marked for each item you can see that, in fact, each of the bullets of the Adams, Enfield and Webley cartridges are effectively .455" diameter and each casing has the same effective inside diameter at the mouth ....

wbstrya.jpg


wbstryb.jpg


wbstryc.jpg


wbstryd.jpg


The various 19th century British service revolver cartridges were "progressively interchangeable" ..... by which I mean that Adams cartridge could be chambered and fired in the later Enfield and Webley revolvers, and Enfield cartridges could be chambered and fired in the later Webley revolvers. (Indeed, the Mark I Enfield revolver was introduced in 1879 but the cartridge designed specifically for it was not adopted until about a year later; similarly, the Mark I Webley revolver was introduced in 1887 but a cartridge designed specifically for it did not come along until over three years later! In each case, these new service revolvers were initially used with the ealier service cartridges ......)

I should stress that the later .455 Webley cartridges would also chamber and fire in the earlier Enfield revolvers. Note also that the Mark II (and later) .455 Webley cartridge actually had a shorter case than the Mark I, because after cordite - the first smokeless propellant - was introduced in 1894, it was discovered that the optimum charge did not fill the more voluminous Mark I case (designed for black powder) and that this charge in fact performed more consistently if confined in a smaller space. Thus the shorter "Mark II" case was finally adopted in 1898.

As you can imagine, this "cartridge interchangeability" was entirely intentional on the part of the War Department. Indeed, even after the shorter .455 Mark II Webley case came along in 1898, all Webley service revolvers .... up to and including the Mark VI revolver introduced in 1915 .... had chambers of sufficient length to accept and fire the longer Mark I cartridges and also the earlier ".476" Enfield cartridges ..... so that any service revolver ammunition, no matter how "obsolete", which might turn up in some backwater corner of the Empire could be used in any current-issue British-issue military revolver.

Of the various .455 Webley service revolver modelss, only Mark I and Mark II revolvers all fall within the Canadian definition of "antique" - which requires that the specific firearm must have been manufactured "before 1898". Some (but definitely not all) Mark III revolvers qualify as "antique" because this model was introduced in 1897, but of course continued in production after the effective Canadian "cutoff date" - i.e. 31 December 1897. The next model, the Mark IV, was not introduced until 1899 so none of those can be "antique" .... nor can any Mark V (introduced 1913) or Mark VI (introduced 1915).

NOTE: All of the above discussion relates to military-issue "service revolvers" .... which is what most people seem to be thinking of when they talk about "Webleys". Of course, Webley (and various other British manufacturers) produced handguns in many different models which were not military service revolvers, and some of them were chambered for cartridges (besides .455) which are also not on the silly Canadian list which prevents some handguns from qualifying as "antique" regardless of date of manufacture (i.e. .22 Short, Long or Long Rifle rimfire, or .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt.) Unfortunately, there are so many possibilities that it is not practical to try to enumerate the various models of British handgun and/or cartridges which would qualify as "antique" under Canadian law ......
 
Thanks again for the informative post. I just ordered another book on the Webley called: The Webley Story by William Dowell. I hope this book helps me some more. It is a crazy expensive book but I think I got a deal, maybe this fellow has reproduced the book and is selling these copies for $85 other copies are in the $300 range. The gun guy I deal with most is a former Webley owner so he will sort me out once I strike a deal on the Mark IV_VI gun. I will need a set of dies, a setup to melt lead, make slugs, and some brass, I guess Mk. II style brass.

Would it be correct to call the guns Mark II and the ammo. Mk. II? Seems that is how the current book I have does it.
 
Last edited:
The diagrams posted above are in fact scanned from The Webley Story (first published 1962) which has long been considered the "bible" relative to Webley handguns. I have a copy, of course, and it is chock full of information ...... although it is written in a rather pedantic style which can be difficult to follow. Also. it is not terribly well illustrated by "modern" standards ..... in the sense that the numerous photographs are collected together in sections of "plates" printed on glossy paper scattered in separate groupings interspersed throughout the volume in the "old style", so that one must constantly be flipping back and forth between text and plates. It is also not infallible .... for example, Dowell can possibly be credited with being the origin of the very incorrect term "Webley-Green" in relation to Webley's "WG" models. At any rate, he says that is what the abbreviation means without citing any authority whatsoever for the assertion, which is entirely incorrect. The "Green" in question was a rival gun designer who was never associated in any way with the Webley company .... and contemporary Webley records and promotional materials make it clear that the abbreviation in fact stands for "Webley Government" ..... However, most people today still refer to these models as "Webley-Greens" ....

Actually, an arguably better book is Bruce and Reinhart's "Webley Revolvers" ..... which they themselves acknowledge is essentially an update of Dowell's work, rather more concise and readable, with corrections and additional information, and better illustrated, with new photographs printed right on (or very near) the same pages as the related text .... in the more modern style. Unfortunately, this more recent work (1988) is also out of print, and thus quite expensive when you can find a copy ..... (Would I be correct in assuming that the book you currently have is the recently published "The Webley Service Revolver" by Robert Maze?)

Yes, about the only .455 brass currently available is Mark II - either once-fired Fiocchi cases, or the cases currently made by Hornady. Either way, I understand that it is difficult to locate .... although not impossible. I have a fair quantity of old Dominion .455 Colt cases (equivalent to the Mark I service cartridge) which I use for loading that length of round (e.g. when I want a full black powder load) but for the most part do my smokeless loads in Mark II cases. As mentioned above, the shorter length will work just fine in any .455 Webley revolver .... Mind you, you may be able to find Dominion .455 Colt cases at gun shows in Canada, if you have any hankering for the "original" cartridge. They are the older "semi-baloonhead" type of case (rather than the modern type with a solid web of brass surrounding the primer pocket) so they are a bit less durable .... but I have used mine for numerous reloads without many problems, other than a very few "head separations".

The ideal bullet for loading .455 cartridges is a hollow-based one, cast fairly soft. Webley service revolvers usually have a chamber throat diameter which is actually less than the true bore diameter .... meaning that the bullet exiting the chamber is rally a bit undersized for the bore .... which is where a hollow base and soft composition come in handy, allowing the the base of the bullet to expand again for effective engagement of the rifling. This seems to have been an intentional design characteristic, not accidental. My own pet theory of the reasoning behind this relates to the relatively light powder charges of the .455 revolver cartridges - for example the Mark I .455 cartridge had a powder charge of only 18 grains of black powder, pushing a 265 grain bullet .... compared to the contemporary american .45 Colt cartridge, with a 40 grain charge of black powder and a 250 grain bullet. It is surmised that the oversized bullet needing to be forced through a tight chamber throat forces the most complete and efficient combustion of the powder charge possible, thus increasing the pressure and velocity .... but by then the bullet has been "swaged down" below bore diameter, so the hollow base and relatively soft alloy are needed for bullet expansion into the rifling, for accuracy. Whether that is the really what is happening or not, the fact is that such .455 revolvers, shot with that type of cartridge, are very accurate and have excellent "stopping power" .... (I am also a great fan of the .45 Colt cartridge . which is what I use exclusively in cowboy Action shooting - but in my view a full charge of black powder - limited to about 35 grains in modern solid-head cartridge cases - is in fact rather excessive, resulting in incomplete combustion of the powder charge, and altogether too much recoil .... as well as excessive gas leakage at the cylinder/barrel gap, smoke and flash .... for the actual effectiveness of the cartridge.)

If you want to get into casting bullets, a mould which produces an excellent bullet of the "original" design - i.e. a 265 grain hollow-based bullet with the traditional "long pointy nose" - essentially a copy of the .455 Mark II bullet shown above - is the RCBS "45-265-RN-HB" mould. Here is an image of the mould cavity, with the base-forming plug in place -
455RCBS.jpg

This is not a "cheap" mould - a set of mould blocks are running about US$120 nowadays, and you must also buy separate handles for the mould blocks .... unless you already have the right size of handles for other mould blocks. However, a decent set of steel mould blocks like this for any bullet will be at least US$60 or so, anyway. This is a "limited production" mould, with the added complication of a hollow-base forming plug, hence the high price. Lee Precision produce a decent set of economically priced loading dies for .455 Webley, which is what I in fact use. Initial cash outlay for the moulds, dies and such for such an "obsolete" cartridge can be fairly high ... but in reality is the only feasible way to go if one wants to shoot the .455 with regularity. When one realizes that a box of 50 bullets of this type, sized and lubed, will likely cost $35 or $40 - if you can find someone producing them - and 50 loaded cartridges - if you can locate any - will probably cost in the range of $100 or more, the outlay for casting and loading equipment doesn't seem so bad!

Here are bullets cast in the above mould; the loaded cartridges in the lower image are as follows (left to right) -
- factory loaded Mark II .455 cartridge
- factory loaded .455 Colt (i.e. Mark I) cartridge (Dominion)
- hand loaded cartridge using Dominion .455 Colt case and the bullet from this mould, and the Lee dies
- hand loaded cartridge using .45 Colt case shortened and modified to .455 Mark I specs, with the same bullet
455IIIb.jpg


In response to your final question, Mk. II (or Mk II) is simply an abbreviation of "Mark II" and the terms are properly interchangeable ..... although the author of your current work may have intentionally used the two different forms that way - i.e. one form to refer to the revolver and the other form to refer to the cartridge - as a matter of convenience. As you likely know, the term "Mark" is simply British War Department terminology to refer to successive versions of something, where the differences are considered sufficiently significant to warrant calling them separate "models", so to speak. Relatively minor variations in a "sealed pattern" which warrant some sort of differentiation in terminology, but which are not considered sufficiently significant to warrant calling something an entirely new "Mark", are denoted by "stars" shown in written form as asterisks - as in "Mark II**" Thus, for example, you have a "Mark II" or "Mk II" revolver and also a "Mark II" or "Mk II" cartridge ..... but that does not necessarily mean that they are related to one another chronologically (or in actual use) - it just means that the particular "sealed pattern" being thus referred to is the second version of each item which was officially adopted. (In our current discussion, for example, the .455 Webley Mark II revolver pattern was adopted in 1895, and was really designed (and proofed) only for the black powder Mark I .455 cartridge ..... and, technically at least, was probably inadequate in strength for a steady diet of the smokeless Mark II cartridge (1898) ..... even though many such revolvers were very likely shot with the newer cartridge (with a somewhat higher "failure rate", no doubt, than if they had been shot only with Mark I cartridges .....
 
Thanks for the informative response. You are the best. Yes the book I have is by Robert Maze. I will look for the other book you mentioned. I have to try and find the gun shows in my area, New Brunswick to see what I can turn up. The best gun dealer to deal with down here, Salter, is kind of high, he wants top $$ for what ever he has. There is one Mark VI on EE here for around $850 I think that is a little on the high side as well but it all depends on condition. These guns were selling for less than $50 in the 70s from what I can understand. I'm thinking $350-500 is a very fair price for a good example of the Mark VI. If I had to pay $850 I would just go streight to a Mark I or II and be done with it. My gun budget has the $$ to buy one right now and I hate to wait LOL but no sense in overpaying. My go to gun guy says if you buying a Webley get the .455 not the .38 S&W so I have to go with him, even though he has new .38 S&W ammo on his shelf.

Thanks again for your informative posts.
 
Does anyone know where to source the bullets for the webleys? I just picked up a mint Mk VI with its original military holster that I would like to put a few rounds through. I didn't think the were worth that much since I only paid $150 for it here in Ontario.

I have a few complete rounds, and recently picked up some of the Hornady brass to load. I was just going to buy the lee dies.
 
Back
Top Bottom