Webley questions
- Thread starter petster774
- Start date
I dont think thats right either.
Even a light load where the bullet gets stuck in the barrel gives some recoil tho slight.
+ gases escape thru the Barrel cylinder gap before the bullet leaves the barrel so if the gasses cause recoil as you say then some recoil would be felt before the bullet leaves the barrel i figger
I'm not sure exactly how the mechanics of the inertia of the bullet vs. the inertia of the gun come into play, so I'm not totally sure how the movement of the accelerating bullet affects the recoil, there might be some slight effect.
I think however that the cylinder gap will not contribute to recoil. The gasses that are escaping to the left are ballanced by the gasses that escape to the right, same for the gasses that escape at any other point on the cirumfrence of the gap, they are ballanced by the gasses that escape at the point 180 deg. on the other side. Well assuming the gap is about the same dimension all the way around with no immediate obstructions. I think the gasses hitting the top strap and the crane should also cancel each other out?
An easy way to test whether the (majority of the) recoil comes before the bullet exits the barrel or after, is to to shoot bullets of equal weight with .38 sp. loads and and .357 mag. loads from the same revolver at a target that is close enough that the bullet trajectory is relatively flat. If both loads have the same POI then the recoil came after, if the .357 mag. loads shoot higher than the .38 sp. then the recoil came before.
Next time I take my .357 to the range I'll try this out. I have a feeling that the poi will be the same for both. I'll let you guys know if its not.
Trying to keep this on topic, petster774 if you can try some different ammo maybe you can find out if its the sights or the ammo. My Mk VI has a little screw on the front blade, I'm not sure if this is to allow for up and down adjustment, or to allow for removal, either way, if yours has a similar front sight, you should be able to adjust it down or replace with a lower front sight.
I think however that the cylinder gap will not contribute to recoil. The gasses that are escaping to the left are ballanced by the gasses that escape to the right, same for the gasses that escape at any other point on the cirumfrence of the gap, they are ballanced by the gasses that escape at the point 180 deg. on the other side. Well assuming the gap is about the same dimension all the way around with no immediate obstructions. I think the gasses hitting the top strap and the crane should also cancel each other out?
An easy way to test whether the (majority of the) recoil comes before the bullet exits the barrel or after, is to to shoot bullets of equal weight with .38 sp. loads and and .357 mag. loads from the same revolver at a target that is close enough that the bullet trajectory is relatively flat. If both loads have the same POI then the recoil came after, if the .357 mag. loads shoot higher than the .38 sp. then the recoil came before.
Next time I take my .357 to the range I'll try this out. I have a feeling that the poi will be the same for both. I'll let you guys know if its not.
Trying to keep this on topic, petster774 if you can try some different ammo maybe you can find out if its the sights or the ammo. My Mk VI has a little screw on the front blade, I'm not sure if this is to allow for up and down adjustment, or to allow for removal, either way, if yours has a similar front sight, you should be able to adjust it down or replace with a lower front sight.
I dont think thats right either.
Even a light load where the bullet gets stuck in the barrel gives some recoil tho slight.
+ gases escape thru the Barrel cylinder gap before the bullet leaves the barrel so if the gasses cause recoil as you say then some recoil would be felt before the bullet leaves the barrel i figger
I'm not sure, assuming no cylinder gap, the pressure of the expanding gasses is in all directions, left right up down back forward, it cancels itself out in all directions while it is in an enclosed volume (i.e. bullet has not left the barrel, this changes when the gasses are allowed to vent via the muzzle) the only thing that does have an effect on the momentum or inertia (I forget which is the most correct term) while the gasses are in a closed system (bullet still in the barrel), is the movement of the two bodies relative to each other (bullet and gun), I think the felt recoil from this action would be a factor of the ratio of their weighs or something, but its been a long time since I studied this stuff. There must be some braniacs here that know the answer?? Maybe we could set up a CGN "how things work" corner?
Newtons 3rd law. Simple physics. Reaction on the bullet /firearm is at the same instant.
Keep in mind :
"The force on the rifle equals the force on the bullet. Yet, acceleration depends on both force and mass. The bullet has a greater acceleration due to the fact that it has a smaller mass. Remember: acceleration and mass are inversely proportional."
whatever.....
Keep in mind :
"The force on the rifle equals the force on the bullet. Yet, acceleration depends on both force and mass. The bullet has a greater acceleration due to the fact that it has a smaller mass. Remember: acceleration and mass are inversely proportional."
whatever.....
Forget about cylinder gap. This is all about the pivot point.
If you had a barrel (no gun just a round barrel) held in place the bullet will travel down the barrel and the opposite force will be straight back.
Now because a handgun (or most rifles with a drop) has the barrel offset from the point at which it is being held (the pivot point, your hand for a handgun and your shoulder for a rifle) the gun will recoil up.
The barrel moves up because of the recoil. The slower bullet is in the barrel longer and point of exit will be higher. Remember that the gun is effectively moving in an arc up (and back a little) due to the recoil.
Recoil is a force. The bullet is forced forward and the gun moves back or in whatever direction it is able to. Since the barrel is offset from the pivot point the barrel moves up.
John@ you keep mentioning felt recoil. Forget about felt recoil. You are thinking about how people try to minimize recoil. Like with a muzzle brake / compensator. You have got the impression that the escaping gases are responsible for the recoil. The use of the gas after the bullet has left the barrel is being used to counter the recoil generated as the bullet has been moving down the barrel.
If you had a barrel (no gun just a round barrel) held in place the bullet will travel down the barrel and the opposite force will be straight back.
Now because a handgun (or most rifles with a drop) has the barrel offset from the point at which it is being held (the pivot point, your hand for a handgun and your shoulder for a rifle) the gun will recoil up.
The barrel moves up because of the recoil. The slower bullet is in the barrel longer and point of exit will be higher. Remember that the gun is effectively moving in an arc up (and back a little) due to the recoil.
Recoil is a force. The bullet is forced forward and the gun moves back or in whatever direction it is able to. Since the barrel is offset from the pivot point the barrel moves up.
John@ you keep mentioning felt recoil. Forget about felt recoil. You are thinking about how people try to minimize recoil. Like with a muzzle brake / compensator. You have got the impression that the escaping gases are responsible for the recoil. The use of the gas after the bullet has left the barrel is being used to counter the recoil generated as the bullet has been moving down the barrel.
Wow you are right. It covers it in detail. I have had Hatcher's Notebook for years but have never bothered to read it yet.
Then he goes into examples with all the math and my four typing fingers are getting sore so I'll quit now.
Effect of Recoil on the Jump of Revolvers
The handle of a revolver or pistol is below the barrel, with the result that a backward push on the barrel of a handgun in the grasp of a shooter tends to pivot the gun about the user's wrist and make the barrel swing upward.
The pressure in the chamber of the .45 caliber automatic pistol is from 14000 to 15000 pounds per square inch, and as the base of the bullet has an area of .159 square inch, that means that for an instant the pressure is driving the gun back with a force of from 2226 to 2385 pounds, or well over a ton.
Nothing that the shooter can do toward holding the gun tighter will have much effect on the motion caused by the enormous force, which, fortunately, lasts only a brief fraction of a second.
The result is that at ordinary pistol shooting ranges not greater than 50 yards the bullet discharged from the pistol or revolver will inevitably strike above the point at which the bore of the gun was aligned at the instant of the discharge.
All handgun makers take this fact into account, whether consciously or not, in the way they place the sights. In order to make the bullet strike the spot aimed at, the barrel must point below this spot, so the sights are always so aligned at the factory as to make the line of sight rise above the line of the bore enough to correct for the jump.
With the sights adjusted this way, the bullet hits the spot at which the sights were pointed at discharge, though not the spot at which the bore was aligned at that instant.
Users of factory loads are not mutch bothered by this phenomenon; in fact, they are usually unaware of it, unless they happen, for example to use both the regular .38 Special cartridge, with its 158 grain bullet, and the .38 Special Super Police, with its 200 grain bullet, and to use them in the same gun. Or, of course, the .38 S&W and the corresponding .38 S&W Super Police. Or something of the kind.
The handloader, however, who is likely to use bullets of several different weights in the same gun, is constantly bothered by rather large changes in his point of impact. For example, I have often received letters reading something like this: "My .38 Special Revolver is sighted for the factory loads, and when I shoot the 130 grain wadcutters it groups low. Please give me a load for this bullet that will make it group with the factory load."
The answer is that it can't be done. The general impressions seem to be that if we put in more powder, we will make it jump greater and thus make the bullet hit higher on the target, but as a practical matter this is not so. If we want to split hairs, we must admit that the added weight of the grain or two of powder does in theory cause the gun to jump slightly more; but this is solely on account of the added mass to be expelled from the gun along with the bullet, not because of the added velocity. The mass of the powder is so insignificant compared with that of the bullet as not to be noticeable.
To take a concrete example, it has been found by experiment that with a six inch barreled revolver, the 200 grain .38 Special Super Police bullet will strike 4 1/2 inch higher on the target at 20 yards than with the 158 grain .38 Special with 860 feet per second muzzle velocity. While the difference in impact at 20 yards is 4 1/2 inches, the entire drop in trajectory for the standard velocity load at that range is only 9/10 of an inch. If we could raise the velocity of the .38 Special from 860 feet per second to 2000 feet per second, we would raise its point of impact only some 3/4 of an inch, and the low velocity 200 grain Super Police bullet would still strike nearly 4 inches higher.
Of course, raising the velocity of the 158 grain bullet would greatly increase the recoil of the gun; but at the higher velocity the bullet would get away that much sooner, and these two factors balance each other, so that the bullet of any given weight the amount the gun moves before the bullet leaves is about the same regardless of velocity.
Then he goes into examples with all the math and my four typing fingers are getting sore so I'll quit now.
