Weighing powder - How do I speed up the process?

I remember an article or two a few years back on poweder measures, chargemasters and scales with tricklers comparing the speed and accuracy of all three. I believe it was by Barsness in either Handloader or Varmint Hunter magazine. I was surprised to see that a quality powder measure came out on top in all categories tested. There was even a bit in there about many benchrest shooters using measures for match ammo versus weighing each one. I never researched or fact checked the article but I wish I could find it. To me the chargemaster is slow, but I usually seat bullets and pick up the next case to charge wilhile its weighing.
 
If your target is let's say 42gr of powder, and are ok with 41.4gr to 42.6gr of variance, chargemaster will work for you

Tested mine extensively next to an fx120 and these were my numbers

Holy crap! I'd expect the Chargemaster to be +/- 0.2 grains at most.

But 0.4 to 0.6 grains off? That's total bullsh*t for a $300+ machine.

I'd be seriously pissed off if I bought one of those and had those results. I'd never buy anything from that manufacturer, the retailer I bought it from, and perhaps even from anyone in the town in which the retailer was located, ever again.

Was yours busted or something? Just wondering if you were able to track down why it was so far off.
 
I'm gearing up too use my quick Lee hand powder charger and one of the 2 vibrating power trickler.

The Omega or Vibrashine units.

Drop 90 ish % by hand powder charger, followed by 7 too 9 seconds of electric top-off charge.

Being that they come with 2 hand switches, I'll add a 2 speed foot control too regulate the vibrater speed control.

$19 USD funds if I recall. The foot control is free since we have lots of them at our shop.

I'll look into the balance beam trip out contact switch while I'm at it.

Nothing wrong with making what I need too simplify things.

Don
 
I use a Chargemaster to throw the powder then weigh it again on my Acculab Vic 123. The Chargemaster for the most part will throw .2 gr under. However sometimes it will throw 1 gr heavy, I just dump that back in. Forget any trickler including the Dandy (that added 15 minutes for each box of 50) The Acculab scale will weigh a kernel of powder, I am looking for .02 gr accuracy. For most people +/-.2 gr or even .5 gr would be close enough. I am competing out to 1000 yards so I am looking for every advantage my ammo can give me.
 
Unfortunately I, and I'm sure quite a few others, can't afford $650 for a scale.

Budgets are a fact of life. I can't afford a Ferrari so I can't go that fast either despite it being the best way to go fast on the highway. I can go as fast as I need to in my pickup and still get the job done. But if I really needed to go faster than the pickup can I would have to look at upgrading my budget. Same for reloading.
 
Holy crap! I'd expect the Chargemaster to be +/- 0.2 grains at most.

But 0.4 to 0.6 grains off? That's total bullsh*t for a $300+ machine.

I'd be seriously pissed off if I bought one of those and had those results. I'd never buy anything from that manufacturer, the retailer I bought it from, and perhaps even from anyone in the town in which the retailer was located, ever again.

Was yours busted or something? Just wondering if you were able to track down why it was so far off.

I just reread, typo on my part.
Aiming for 42gr, i was getting in average 41.14gr to 42.16gr.
Forgot a ''1'' in there.
sometimes it would throw 41.12/42.18, and still display 42.0gr
The machine is rated +/- 0.10gr precision afterall. And was working fully within parameters of advertised precision.

If i was to do it again, i would of toughed out the beamscale, maybe modify it with a webcam make things easier, and then go direct to fx120/autotrickler, with no chargemaster in between. Would of saved $$$ in the long run.
 
Unfortunately I, and I'm sure quite a few others, can't afford $650 for a scale.

I got my acculab for $300 shipped. Lots of accurate scales out there under $500. IF it sounds like a lot, its probably cheaper than trying 9 other cheaper things first. Buy once cry once.

Every time i had not gotten the tool i thought I needed because it was too expensive, i always ended up with the tool in the end, but wasted a lot of time and money in the meantime screwing around with half solutions.

I have has a RCBS trickler and it did nothing to speed things up, it actually slowed things down.

I'm not sure how a different balance beam scale could be faster than another?

Some scales settle down faster, but in general, I find some scales are more prone to fumbles and spills. LIke wise some tricklers measure very nicely, some are prone to dropping big clumps with at the line and putting you over.

I made a little trowel our of aluminum to fish out excess powder one grain at a time.

You can also speed it's dampening by putting a magnet under the pan.

Um, wouldn't that affect the reading?

I remember an article or two a few years back on poweder measures, chargemasters and scales with tricklers comparing the speed and accuracy of all three. I believe it was by Barsness in either Handloader or Varmint Hunter magazine. I was surprised to see that a quality powder measure came out on top in all categories tested. There was even a bit in there about many benchrest shooters using measures for match ammo versus weighing each one. I never researched or fact checked the article but I wish I could find it. To me the chargemaster is slow, but I usually seat bullets and pick up the next case to charge wilhile its weighing.

I have no doubt that there are a few bench rest shooters that just throw a charge without measuring, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a benchrest champion that doesn't weigh every one. I stand ready to have my mind blown.

OP, chargemaster won't be as precise as your beam scale.
If your target is let's say 42gr of powder, and are ok with 41.4gr to 42.6gr of variance, chargemaster will work for you

Tested mine extensively next to an fx120 and these were my numbers

I saw your post about the type with the numbers, so let me confirm. You threw a bunch of "42.0" gr charges on the chargemaster, and then re-weighed them with an FX120 and got a distribution between 41.14 and 42.16?

If so, that is certainly well outside the rated performance of the chargemaster, by an order of magnitude. 41.14 is 0.84 gr under, more than 8 times outside the permissible 0.1 gr.

Personally i would be hesitant to very an electronic scale with another electronic scale. One of both of them could be suffering from drift, and if too close to each other could cause problems as well.

I would be interesting to hear what would happen if you through 10 '42.0" gr charges with charge master, and re-weigh those charges on the same charge master 20 minutes later.

I would also want to see if a properly calibrated beam scale showed the same spread.

One thing to consider with these electronic scales, is to understand how much of that 0.1 gr tolerance translates into variability for a given charge.

A 4 gr charge for 9 mm and that 0.1 = 2.5%
a 70 gr 300 WM charge and its only 0.14%

Since pistol powders pack tighter and have a more consistent volume/mass ratio, i would have no problem using a thrower or even a custom scoop instead of an electronic scale.

For rifle calibres though, I'm quite happy with the RCBS, especially the big stuff.
 
I just reread, typo on my part.
Aiming for 42gr, i was getting in average 41.14gr to 42.16gr.
Forgot a ''1'' in there.
sometimes it would throw 41.12/42.18, and still display 42.0gr
The machine is rated +/- 0.10gr precision afterall. And was working fully within parameters of advertised precision.

If i was to do it again, i would of toughed out the beamscale, maybe modify it with a webcam make things easier, and then go direct to fx120/autotrickler, with no chargemaster in between. Would of saved $$$ in the long run.

If your Chargemaster produces that much variance, then either the unit is defective, or your setup is poor. I have two Chargemaster, and both are consistently within .1gr of the set weight.
 
I just reread, typo on my part.
Aiming for 42gr, i was getting in average 41.14gr to 42.16gr.
Forgot a ''1'' in there.
sometimes it would throw 41.12/42.18, and still display 42.0gr
The machine is rated +/- 0.10gr precision afterall. And was working fully within parameters of advertised precision.

If i was to do it again, i would of toughed out the beamscale, maybe modify it with a webcam make things easier, and then go direct to fx120/autotrickler, with no chargemaster in between. Would of saved $$$ in the long run.

Thanks for the clarification! I am guessing that you still have a typo there -- that 41.12 showing as 42.0 is still almost a full grain off and not just a tenth. But I think I know what you mean.

Now, I have to ask: how necessary is it to measure down to 1/100th of a grain?

maynard mentions his tolerance of +/- 0.02 grains for 1000 yard work, but can it be proven that such powder measuring accuracy makes a difference? I know that you can do the math to calculate how much powder gives how many FPS and thus the point of impact at 1000 yards. But that's math. I would think that there are so many other real-world variables involved that it would be very difficult to show that 2/100ths of a grain made a measurable, and repeatably measurable, difference.

I'm not criticising or mocking anyone here for wanting this sort of accuracy. I'm just really curious about how that level of powder measuring accuracy is measured and confirmed in the actual shooting.

Personally, I aim for +/- 0.1 grain. But I am just really plinking out to 200 yards. If I can hit a 6" gong at 200 yards with open sights, I'm happy :)
 
If I had to use a LEE scale, I wouldn't bother reloading. Either set a measure slightly light, and trickle off onto a decent scale, or get a Chargemaster.

This rout is cheap and effective. That Lee scale is is jumpy as hell and just by switching to a better, used balance scale things speed up a considerable amount. Any decent scale with some sort of damping. Dampening?
 
Sorry guys, just reread my numbers again, I fack up numbers as I type them.
Let's just sum it up, that the scale can throw 0.1gr off either way and will read the same.
so if your objective is X, it went as much as going X-0.08gr or X+0.08gr, and would display the same number.
The 0.1gr tolerance is either way, and when you get the 2 extremes it stacks up.
It never went the full 0.1gr off, was maximum 0.08gr off.
 
I've been looking at this thing -- http://www.targetmasteruk.com/ -- and it sure seems interesting. I've emailed to ask if they can ship to Canada.

I heard back via email: they can indeed ship the Targetmaster to Canada. From the email:

The Targetmaster costs ÂŁ119 British pounds and shipping by Royal Mail airmail in ÂŁ23.80 British pounds.

Just a data point for anyone interested.
 
This rout is cheap and effective. That Lee scale is is jumpy as hell and just by switching to a better, used balance scale things speed up a considerable amount. Any decent scale with some sort of damping. Dampening?

I have personally observed LEE scales being smashed with a hammer, and being shot with a rifle by the owners. Doing so, put a smile on both of their faces.
 
This isn't the article I referenced earlier, but it does touch on some of the points I remember from the John Barsness article in Handloader magazine.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/reloading/best-way-to-measure-powder/

The John Barsness article is in the Feb 2013 issue of Handloader magazine entitled "The "Exact" Amount of Powder - Testing Powder Dispensers". John goes into good detail comparing and testing the speed of loading, accuracy of the charges thrown and precision of the ammo loaded with powder measures, chargemaster, and scale weighting each charge.

Just food for thought for the op looking to improve his loading syst. I use a chargemaster because I bought one before I had kids and I could spend my $ on whatever I wanted,and I shot 10x what I do now. I certainly wouldn't feel ill equipped with a good powder measure and good scale to verify it on.

The thing I took from Johns article was that's load which shoots accurately with slight variations is inherently more accurate than a load which only shoots well loaded to exactly the same charge to the 100th of a grain.
 
Thanks for the clarification! I am guessing that you still have a typo there -- that 41.12 showing as 42.0 is still almost a full grain off and not just a tenth. But I think I know what you mean.

Now, I have to ask: how necessary is it to measure down to 1/100th of a grain?

maynard mentions his tolerance of +/- 0.02 grains for 1000 yard work, but can it be proven that such powder measuring accuracy makes a difference? I know that you can do the math to calculate how much powder gives how many FPS and thus the point of impact at 1000 yards. But that's math. I would think that there are so many other real-world variables involved that it would be very difficult to show that 2/100ths of a grain made a measurable, and repeatably measurable, difference.

I'm not criticising or mocking anyone here for wanting this sort of accuracy. I'm just really curious about how that level of powder measuring accuracy is measured and confirmed in the actual shooting.

Personally, I aim for +/- 0.1 grain. But I am just really plinking out to 200 yards. If I can hit a 6" gong at 200 yards with open sights, I'm happy :)

The better quality milligram scales used for LR competitors also have a built in error (all machines do). Stated as +/- 0.02gr... essentially, we can only make ammo that is within 0.05gr of actual... the ammo is consistent to the 0.1gr and THIS makes a difference on target.

With the right rifles, optics and shooter, there is no problem to see a difference of 0.1gr on target at 1000yds using typical mid sized cartridges. The smaller the case volume the more acute this becomes.

Remember that these shooters will also tune their OAL in a few thou increments... that is some very small adjustments on the load tuning of the ammo AND they can see dramatic changes on target.

I test at 250yds and have no issue seeing changes on the target at 0.1gr increments.... but I am also shooting rifles with the ability to be in the 2's and 3's. For "MOA" type rifles, the grouping of the rifle is the limiting factor so all the little steps competition shooters do are lost in the noise of the system.

Jerry
 
This isn't the article I referenced earlier, but it does touch on some of the points I remember from the John Barsness article in Handloader magazine.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/reloading/best-way-to-measure-powder/

The John Barsness article is in the Feb 2013 issue of Handloader magazine entitled "The "Exact" Amount of Powder - Testing Powder Dispensers". John goes into good detail comparing and testing the speed of loading, accuracy of the charges thrown and precision of the ammo loaded with powder measures, chargemaster, and scale weighting each charge.

Just food for thought for the op looking to improve his loading syst. I use a chargemaster because I bought one before I had kids and I could spend my $ on whatever I wanted,and I shot 10x what I do now. I certainly wouldn't feel ill equipped with a good powder measure and good scale to verify it on.

The thing I took from Johns article was that's load which shoots accurately with slight variations is inherently more accurate than a load which only shoots well loaded to exactly the same charge to the 100th of a grain.

Interesting article. With my current limit at 200 yards, I'm good to go with +/- 0.1 grains!

Whew! Glad I don't need to spend any more money :)
 
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