What 45-70 load in 1886 winchester?

[jethunter]

New project loading up some 400 gr 45/70 cast boolits for an 1886 winchester. Rifle is new build on an old frame, modern barrel and guts.

There are 3 different levels of 45-70 loads published - low pressure loads for trapdoor Springfield rifless, mid pressure loads intended for the marlin 1895, and the highest pressure loads intended for the ruger #1 and bolt actions. Would it be reasonable to use load data intended for the 1895 Marlin in my 1886 Winchester?

Also looking for suggested start/max loads of IMR4198 in this rifle. I have 4 sources of data and Quickload - and none of them agree on anything.

 

[Bassmaster]

My old Lyman manual lists loads for trapdoors and the 1886 Win only....no mention of 1895 Marlins or Rugers.
Here’s what’s listed for the 1886:
405 grn jacketed with IMR 4198
· 33.0 grn @ 1336 fps to 38.0 grn max @ 1557 fps

385 grn cast with IMR 4198
· 36.0 grn @ 1533 fps to 40.0 grn max @ 1666 fps

 

[jethunter]

Thanks, that's very helpful!

 

[John Y Cannuck]

The modern 1886 Winchester is at least as strong as the modern Marlin. The originals, not so much. The design is very strong, but the metallurgy of an older rifle may come into play.
The really early ones may have barrels designed for black powder for example.
No, I can't give you the cutoff date for those barrels, Winchester as I understand it, stored barrels all together, and when they got low they were replenished, the bottom of the pile may have been there a while. Probably gone by around 1910 or so though.
WRT the receiver, the models later than the late 1920's are regarded as having full strength if I remember correctly.
Load old guns carefully, there is no reason to risk blowing yourself up for a few fps.
Even the black powder loads for the cartridges these rifles fired are effective killers at modest ranges. (more if you can figure trajectory)
My 1886 dates from 1928, but has a modern barrel. It will take loads that will lock up a Marlin rifle. BUT that's with a modern barrel, and yours may not be the same strength as mine. Be careful.
If I were you, I'd start with the high end trapdoor loads, and move into the Marlin loads till you find what's comfortable, accurate, and safe in your rifle.
Stay right out of the Ruger loads. There is no need to punish an old gun like that, and they are probably not even close to safe.
Mine has 24" twist, and shoots cast best below 1900fps. Much above that makes it shoot too high for the sights anyway.

 

[jethunter]

The modern 1886 Winchester is at least as strong as the modern Marlin. The originals, not so much. The design is very strong, but the metallurgy of an older rifle may come into play.
The really early ones may have barrels designed for black powder for example.
No, I can't give you the cutoff date for those barrels, Winchester as I understand it, stored barrels all together, and when they got low they were replenished, the bottom of the pile may have been there a while. Probably gone by around 1910 or so though.
WRT the receiver, the models later than the late 1920's are regarded as having full strength if I remember correctly.
Load old guns carefully, there is no reason to risk blowing yourself up for a few fps.
Even the black powder loads for the cartridges these rifles fired are effective killers at modest ranges. (more if you can figure trajectory)
My 1886 dates from 1928, but has a modern barrel. It will take loads that will lock up a Marlin rifle. BUT that's with a modern barrel, and yours may not be the same strength as mine. Be careful.
If I were you, I'd start with the high end trapdoor loads, and move into the Marlin loads till you find what's comfortable, accurate, and safe in your rifle.
Stay right out of the Ruger loads. There is no need to punish an old gun like that, and they are probably not even close to safe.
Mine has 24" twist, and shoots cast best below 1900fps. Much above that makes it shoot too high for the sights anyway.

Thanks for your input, it is very helpful and has given me some insight i did not have before. My barrel is an aftermarket modern manufacture heavy octagonal attached to an older rifle. I didn't build it, picked it up on the EE last summer and just getting 'round tuit.

I'm not really interested in making it into a short .458 mag but it is nice to know what the playing field consists of. I'm hoping to work up to a load that pushes a 400 gr bullet in the 1700 fps range. Given what I've learned here from you and Bassmaster that would seem to be a reasonable venture. Thanks again!
Terry

 

[jethunter]

Ran some loads through the old 1886 yesterday. Started at 40 gr IMR4198 and loaded 3 cartridges in each charge weight of 40, 41, 42, & 43 gr. Hodgdon has a 46 gr max listed on their website. (average velocity of 3 shots rounded to nearest 5 fps)

40 gr: 1750 fps (26 in bbl)
41 gr: 1775
42 gr: 1800
43 gr: 1820

brass looked good and extraction was not sticky.
Quickload estimates: 40 gr - 30,000 psi; 43 gr - 36,000 psi.

 

[Opcx6]

Thanks for your input, it is very helpful and has given me some insight i did not have before. My barrel is an aftermarket modern manufacture heavy octagonal attached to an older rifle. I didn't build it, picked it up on the EE last summer and just getting 'round tuit.

I'm not really interested in making it into a short .458 mag but it is nice to know what the playing field consists of. I'm hoping to work up to a load that pushes a 400 gr bullet in the 1700 fps range. Given what I've learned here from you and Bassmaster that would seem to be a reasonable venture. Thanks again!
Terry

Your modern heavy octagonal is very thin under the chamber where it is relieved for the magazine tube. Take a look before you load it too heavy. That has nothing to do with the strength of the action. Just a word to the wise.

 

[Papaclaude]

Ran some loads through the old 1886 yesterday. Started at 40 gr IMR4198 and loaded 3 cartridges in each charge weight of 40, 41, 42, & 43 gr. Hodgdon has a 46 gr max listed on their website. (average velocity of 3 shots rounded to nearest 5 fps)

40 gr: 1750 fps (26 in bbl)
41 gr: 1775
42 gr: 1800
43 gr: 1820

brass looked good and extraction was not sticky.
Quickload estimates: 40 gr - 30,000 psi; 43 gr - 36,000 psi.

If you're shooting cast, I don't think I'd go any faster, or you will probably start to get leading, a real PITA. Are they gas-checks? If so, a 400 gr. pure lead slug moving at those velocities is going to cause some serious hurt to any critter it hits. I shot a smallish black bear with a 45-110 and a 500 gr. cast lead bullet in a black powder loading. I can't remember the ballistics, but it was well below that. The bullet struck at a 45 deg. or so from back to front. It did not strike any large bones, except for a rib, but it opened a 4-5" hole on the way out. The bear twitched, and that was it.

 

[jethunter]

Yes, cast. 400 gr MT Chambers medium-hard with GC. Those boolits shoot GOOD.

No leading in the bore but i'm going to standardize on the 40 gr load. 1700 fps should be lots and 100-150 fps increase in velocity just doesn't make any practical difference.

I also have some Ranch Dog 425 gr GC boolits to try next.