Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Is this where my mountain bike will come in handy?
what a piss off
- Thread starter fogducker
- Start date
- Location
- Lakes District BC
this is were lesson #10 from cub scouts comes in handy , how to start a fire with available tinder
The MNR did this to our gang in Temagami... posted thosed damned "Lands for Life" signs indicating no motorized vehicles on the road, tore out all the drainage pipes, filled in the ditches, etc.
Apparently the goal was to return the area to it's original form prior to logging operations.
The first few years we had a key from one of the log truck drivers, no problem at all as long as we moved the trucks off the road.
After that, they put in a new gate and we just went over it and around it with the ATV's.
Once the MNR caught on, they told us that we should consider ourselves warned. Although we had a crown land lease the only way they wanted us getting in there was on foot, by air, or by boat through a system of portages. Kinda tough.
The next year (last year) we went overland by ATV... did not use the logging road but they still caught up with us - same officers as the year before. Told us this time that if we were seen back there again on ATV's they would be taking them.
The owners of the camp were going to duke this out with the MNR and the Ontario Government... the CO's were actaully somewhat sympathetic about it as without road access e basically had no way of getting to camp. They recommended that we do this as the logging operation had destroyed the original trail.
Too much BS for me - off to Armstrong this fall instead. Unfoatunate though - nice camp and we always filled our tags.
Apparently the goal was to return the area to it's original form prior to logging operations.
The first few years we had a key from one of the log truck drivers, no problem at all as long as we moved the trucks off the road.
After that, they put in a new gate and we just went over it and around it with the ATV's.
Once the MNR caught on, they told us that we should consider ourselves warned. Although we had a crown land lease the only way they wanted us getting in there was on foot, by air, or by boat through a system of portages. Kinda tough.
The next year (last year) we went overland by ATV... did not use the logging road but they still caught up with us - same officers as the year before. Told us this time that if we were seen back there again on ATV's they would be taking them.
The owners of the camp were going to duke this out with the MNR and the Ontario Government... the CO's were actaully somewhat sympathetic about it as without road access e basically had no way of getting to camp. They recommended that we do this as the logging operation had destroyed the original trail.
Too much BS for me - off to Armstrong this fall instead. Unfoatunate though - nice camp and we always filled our tags.
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bullwinkle3006
CGN Regular
- Location
- windsor ontario
Let’s keep those logging roads open
Citizens Committee for Equal Access to Crown Land strongly disapproves of the Ministry of Natural Resources' dictatorial decision to restrict the public access to selected forest roads.
To see the importance of this issue, one has only to consider the fact that from 1997 to 2003, the extent of forest access road closure effectively doubled to a total of 4,380 kilometers. To make matters worse, the ministry's resolution process regarding such closures does not allow for full disclosure. Residents are only told of road closures in their areas. Should the ministry close a road in the Sudbury district, for example, residents are left with the impression the change is insignificant and limited to only a few kilometers. However, the general public is not made aware that the same process is being repeated in several areas throughout Northern Ontario.
The cumulative effects of these road closures is far from insignificant and yet, there is no method for average citizens to challenge the policy as a whole. Consequently, the ministry has been able to use its authority to systematically undermine the rights of Ontario residents who, up to this point, have had a long history of fair and equal access to Crown land.
It has been said that these restrictions have to be put in place to maintain sustainable fish and wildlife populations. No one would argue environmental protection is an admirable goal. However, our committee feels the burden of such protection will not be felt equally by all parties impacted by road closures. This is especially true given the fact that the ministry and the tourist outfitters are actively working together to deny free access to the public at large.
It seems contradictory that the ministry is content to allow trees to be harvested in certain areas while it plans to restrict public access on the grounds that these same areas contain sensitive ecosystems in need of special protection: Special protection from the general public, but not from the forestry industry.
Such a situation is made all the more troubling because the majority of the cost of logging road construction is paid for by Ontario taxpayers. It doesn't seem appropriate that tax dollars should be spent on roads that are not open to taxpayers.
Further, it must be noted that tourist camp operators will not feel the burden of road closures to the same degree as the rest of us. In fact, with the roads closed, lodge owners can conduct their business on Crown land and still effectively exclude free access to the general public. While this may be beneficial to tourist camps, it is difficult to see how such a situation would lead to improved environmental conditions.
Unless, of course, you were of the view that people have less impact on the environment if they pay for the privilege to access a given area.
The ministry has used provisions under the Roads Access Act and the Crown Land Act in a manner that is misguided. The proposed road closures would seem to suggest that the ministry has chosen to use its authority in a way that is counter to the interest of average citizens.
Both acts do indeed give area managers the authority to close access roads temporarily or for a specific period of time. However, in removing bridges, digging up culverts and erecting barricades, the ministry is effectively creating permanent rather than temporary barriers to entry.
Over time, such actions will permanently and severely restrict the ability of average Canadians to freely access public Crown land. This would seem to go beyond the primary goal of the ministry, which is to preserve the natural environment for all Ontarians to enjoy. How can we all enjoy these natural areas, if only a privileged few have access to them?
Another reason given for the need to close forest access roads has been a concern for public safety. While safety is also important, the bridges and culverts used on these roads are designed to handle the load factor of fully laden logging trucks. Further, these bridges and culverts have a life expectancy of at least 25 years. Given the loads these structures have to carry while in the service of the forestry industry, it seems difficult to imagine how they would be unduly stressed by the passage of an individual's car, ATV or pick-up truck.
If the ministry has concerns about safety on forest access roads, those concerns can be adequately addressed through the appropriate use of warning signs. Individuals can then decide for themselves whether to proceed, without the need for road closures.
Further, should the planned road closures go forward, it will have economic consequences that will extend into virtually every community in Ontario. One has only to consider the potential negative impact present and future road closures will have on recreational vehicle sales. After all, what individual would choose to purchase an expensive ATV or four-wheel-drive truck when they can no longer access the roads for which these vehicles were designed? Road closures will also adversely affect the sale of hunting and fishing gear, gasoline and camping equipment. This is a direct threat to the existence of every small business catering to the outdoor industry, whether it be the bait shop, gas station or local country store.
Lastly, the policy of closing access roads will also adversely impact the sale of hunting and fishing licences as well as deer and moose tags. Given that the ministry receives revenue from the sale of these licences and tags, it would seem that the road closures are counter to the ministry's own interests as well.
Citizens Committee for Equal Access to Crown Land strongly disapproves of the Ministry of Natural Resources' dictatorial decision to restrict the public access to selected forest roads.
To see the importance of this issue, one has only to consider the fact that from 1997 to 2003, the extent of forest access road closure effectively doubled to a total of 4,380 kilometers. To make matters worse, the ministry's resolution process regarding such closures does not allow for full disclosure. Residents are only told of road closures in their areas. Should the ministry close a road in the Sudbury district, for example, residents are left with the impression the change is insignificant and limited to only a few kilometers. However, the general public is not made aware that the same process is being repeated in several areas throughout Northern Ontario.
The cumulative effects of these road closures is far from insignificant and yet, there is no method for average citizens to challenge the policy as a whole. Consequently, the ministry has been able to use its authority to systematically undermine the rights of Ontario residents who, up to this point, have had a long history of fair and equal access to Crown land.
It has been said that these restrictions have to be put in place to maintain sustainable fish and wildlife populations. No one would argue environmental protection is an admirable goal. However, our committee feels the burden of such protection will not be felt equally by all parties impacted by road closures. This is especially true given the fact that the ministry and the tourist outfitters are actively working together to deny free access to the public at large.
It seems contradictory that the ministry is content to allow trees to be harvested in certain areas while it plans to restrict public access on the grounds that these same areas contain sensitive ecosystems in need of special protection: Special protection from the general public, but not from the forestry industry.
Such a situation is made all the more troubling because the majority of the cost of logging road construction is paid for by Ontario taxpayers. It doesn't seem appropriate that tax dollars should be spent on roads that are not open to taxpayers.
Further, it must be noted that tourist camp operators will not feel the burden of road closures to the same degree as the rest of us. In fact, with the roads closed, lodge owners can conduct their business on Crown land and still effectively exclude free access to the general public. While this may be beneficial to tourist camps, it is difficult to see how such a situation would lead to improved environmental conditions.
Unless, of course, you were of the view that people have less impact on the environment if they pay for the privilege to access a given area.
The ministry has used provisions under the Roads Access Act and the Crown Land Act in a manner that is misguided. The proposed road closures would seem to suggest that the ministry has chosen to use its authority in a way that is counter to the interest of average citizens.
Both acts do indeed give area managers the authority to close access roads temporarily or for a specific period of time. However, in removing bridges, digging up culverts and erecting barricades, the ministry is effectively creating permanent rather than temporary barriers to entry.
Over time, such actions will permanently and severely restrict the ability of average Canadians to freely access public Crown land. This would seem to go beyond the primary goal of the ministry, which is to preserve the natural environment for all Ontarians to enjoy. How can we all enjoy these natural areas, if only a privileged few have access to them?
Another reason given for the need to close forest access roads has been a concern for public safety. While safety is also important, the bridges and culverts used on these roads are designed to handle the load factor of fully laden logging trucks. Further, these bridges and culverts have a life expectancy of at least 25 years. Given the loads these structures have to carry while in the service of the forestry industry, it seems difficult to imagine how they would be unduly stressed by the passage of an individual's car, ATV or pick-up truck.
If the ministry has concerns about safety on forest access roads, those concerns can be adequately addressed through the appropriate use of warning signs. Individuals can then decide for themselves whether to proceed, without the need for road closures.
Further, should the planned road closures go forward, it will have economic consequences that will extend into virtually every community in Ontario. One has only to consider the potential negative impact present and future road closures will have on recreational vehicle sales. After all, what individual would choose to purchase an expensive ATV or four-wheel-drive truck when they can no longer access the roads for which these vehicles were designed? Road closures will also adversely affect the sale of hunting and fishing gear, gasoline and camping equipment. This is a direct threat to the existence of every small business catering to the outdoor industry, whether it be the bait shop, gas station or local country store.
Lastly, the policy of closing access roads will also adversely impact the sale of hunting and fishing licences as well as deer and moose tags. Given that the ministry receives revenue from the sale of these licences and tags, it would seem that the road closures are counter to the ministry's own interests as well.
Alberta Bigbore
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, Alberta
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
How far up the road are you?
Can you pack in from the highway?
If they did that to our Moose camp, we'd be pissed too, but, it's a two hour walk, and we'd still be going in.
We don't have a tent to pack though.
I've heard of the MNR doing this in the Chapleau area. Must be a reason, maybe they'd make an exception?
Can you pack in from the highway?
If they did that to our Moose camp, we'd be pissed too, but, it's a two hour walk, and we'd still be going in.
We don't have a tent to pack though.
I've heard of the MNR doing this in the Chapleau area. Must be a reason, maybe they'd make an exception?
A bunch of tree huggers did this in Saskatchewan as well. The trails around the gem lakes were declared no MV's, and they felled every tree big enough to cause a MV trouble. They did more damage in one afternoon than the MVs did in the last 30 years. ####ing morons.
an area i hunt mulies out west in b.c. has suffered the same fate, although there are no signs... just BIG fricken trees blocking the 2 very dificult roads/trails to access the camp. it's a 5 km trek on foot.
We discovered this last year, contacted a few folks... logging company has active timber liscence, theft of timber from thier liscenced lot has prompted them to block all access untill thier operations resume on the particular lot in question. If a guy could get over or around it with a vehicle, atv, small 4x4 whatever, they would not be challenged for it. Problem is.... there is NO way around or over these obstacles without doing significant damage to surrounding vegetation including lots of trees. we take in a suzuki and a bj40 landcruiser on 38" tires, 6 inch lift and lockers.... not much stops her.
This year we have decided we will pack in to camp, the terrain is suitable for an easy 5 km hike/walk. There is a lock box at camp we left in the bush, has camp axe, cooking stuff and a few other essentials. We will have to pack in the 4 man wall tent and our food and hunting gear... water will be an issue too. On the bright side, once we have things set up... we should have a large area to hunt all to ourselves. We normally hunt this area on foot from this camp anyways, we'll just have to adjust to not being able to drive right to camp.
after all the above babble... my point is.... if the spot is worth it... and the blockages mean less hunters .... it may be worth it to set your camp up in such a way that essential items are buried in a lock box at the camp. Take in a wheel barrow, the heavy pvc type and leave it stashed in the bush too... make it easy for wheeling out quarters. Some spots are just not worth giving up and i think.... for a sure fire moose spot.. that you have come to be intimately familiar with.... and enjoy hunting..... I know what lengths i'd go to
We discovered this last year, contacted a few folks... logging company has active timber liscence, theft of timber from thier liscenced lot has prompted them to block all access untill thier operations resume on the particular lot in question. If a guy could get over or around it with a vehicle, atv, small 4x4 whatever, they would not be challenged for it. Problem is.... there is NO way around or over these obstacles without doing significant damage to surrounding vegetation including lots of trees. we take in a suzuki and a bj40 landcruiser on 38" tires, 6 inch lift and lockers.... not much stops her.
This year we have decided we will pack in to camp, the terrain is suitable for an easy 5 km hike/walk. There is a lock box at camp we left in the bush, has camp axe, cooking stuff and a few other essentials. We will have to pack in the 4 man wall tent and our food and hunting gear... water will be an issue too. On the bright side, once we have things set up... we should have a large area to hunt all to ourselves. We normally hunt this area on foot from this camp anyways, we'll just have to adjust to not being able to drive right to camp.
after all the above babble...
my point is.... if the spot is worth it... and the blockages mean less hunters .... it may be worth it to set your camp up in such a way that essential items are buried in a lock box at the camp. Take in a wheel barrow, the heavy pvc type and leave it stashed in the bush too... make it easy for wheeling out quarters. Some spots are just not worth giving up and i think.... for a sure fire moose spot.. that you have come to be intimately familiar with.... and enjoy hunting..... I know what lengths i'd go to
bullwinkle3006
CGN Regular
- Location
- windsor ontario
Wasn't my words, just a quote I thought would be interesting to this issue... sorry for the run on, but no "Dumbass" here!
Killarney Park
For those of you who hunt in the Killarney Park area, you should be aware that the park undertook a substantial expansion northward as far as the south shore of Panache Lake into what is named Killarney Lakelands and Headwaters Provincial Park. For now, at least, "hunting, motorboats, and motorized use on existing authorized trails is permitted" (quote from the new map), but there is also a note on the map that states "motorized access is restricted in this area" and it is not very clear what area they are referring to.
For those of you who hunt in the Killarney Park area, you should be aware that the park undertook a substantial expansion northward as far as the south shore of Panache Lake into what is named Killarney Lakelands and Headwaters Provincial Park. For now, at least, "hunting, motorboats, and motorized use on existing authorized trails is permitted" (quote from the new map), but there is also a note on the map that states "motorized access is restricted in this area" and it is not very clear what area they are referring to.
I like this advice. Last year we found a bright orange commercially produced "no hunting" sign on the gate to our favorite piece of bush. After 15 years of hunting there, it's no exaggeration to say that we were freaked. We went to the farm house of the land owner, from whom we had previously been given permission to hunt. He wasn't home, but his adult son asked us what we intended to hunt. The only thing we've ever hunted on his land is grouse, and we told him that was still our intention. He laughed and said that he was the one who put up the signs because he planned to guide deer hunts. He showed us the bunkhouse they were building for hunters, thanked us for checking with him, and told us to go ahead and enjoy our hunt.
In the end, the only thing that has changed is that we don't have any other bird hunters in "our" bush anymore. You may not be so lucky, but don't despair until you find out if this is a complete ban, if it applies to you (hunters), and when or if it will be lifted. Even if all the answers are negative, you may find out about other roads you can use to get closer to your camp than that gate. With the right attitude, the official may decide he likes you and offer a solution you haven't even thought of.
Best of luck. I hope you get satisfaction.
SS
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As many have said before - check it out. Last year the new access road just past where we normally park to hunt (after a multi-mile drive down an old access road) was fenced off and posted "private property" and "no hunting". I emailed a photo to our local MNR office resulting in the CO going out there to take down all the signs. He afterwards told me that it is MNR policy that all new access roads be fenced off after the loggers have finished with the area, but that there was no change in the ownership of the property (crown lands).
That being said, after reading the replies above, we are taking a drive out there tomorrow to make sure that there has been no changes in where the fences are to be erected.
That being said, after reading the replies above, we are taking a drive out there tomorrow to make sure that there has been no changes in where the fences are to be erected.
wes chill out will ya
......do you really need a paragraph,to tell you to take a break in reading..cheers ya ole grouch
last time i saw one of them things they had a motor in them
Have you never heard of the stealth mufflers
http://www.mosquitocreekoutdoors.com/products.asp?dept=314
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Stealth Chevy I think is what Fogducker wants.
Has to make the old Chevy invisible.
Has to make the old Chevy invisible.
i can make that ole truck do a lot of crazy things
..but stealth or invisible...aw why not.........i,ll try anything once
..but im optimistic on all of this.. iwas thinking of it today..as i do know of a spot up there, that i was in last year..
if the sign i saw back then.. (it was a moose crossing path that was wore down about 6 inches in the dirt).is still there next week.
..that will be my spot for the week..no matter what..the two weeks in the bush will be the holiday..the meat in the freezer is just a added bonus..
if all else fails..i,ll have to eat beef
fogducker I came home tonight and found out that the kid has to go to the hospital in Edmonton next week (and now I cannot go moose hunting at all...)
What a ####ty deal.
I told the wife that I will take my calling horn out and see what I can call up around here, next week, just for the fun of it. But no moose hunting trip is major dissapointment. I feel deflated actually...
What a ####ty deal.
I told the wife that I will take my calling horn out and see what I can call up around here, next week, just for the fun of it. But no moose hunting trip is major dissapointment. I feel deflated actually...
