What abouy a 9mm Para bolt action rifle?

Dark Alley Dan

Dark Alley Dan

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How do.

I have half a metric ton of loaded, ready-to-rock 9mm Para in the lockup. I also have a couple of pistols that eat it.

I am not good with a pistol. Can't hit sh!t. I know the solution is practise, and that's certainly in the cards now that I've retired, but I'd like something in a long gun that's "government-theft-resistant".

There's another thread on here with pics of a less-than-attractive bumperjack lookin' creature that's a lever action 9. Too expensive, too homely, at least to my eye, and because it's scary looking, you know it's just a matter of time before the OIC goblin comes knocking. I think a bolt action would be the way to go. I see a couple of options:

- Find a Spanish Destroyer carbine and have it rebarreled from 9x23 to 9x19. Lotta issues with this. First is finding one. Second is sporterizing an increasingly scarce rifle. Not sure I could sleep at night if I did that.
- Rock Island Arsenal out of the Philippines makes a rifle in 22 TCM: https://www.armscor.com/firearms-list/m22-tcm-ba-22tcm-5rd Special Interest Arms in the States (now apparently defunct) rechanbered some to 9mm Para. It seems easy enough to do - bolt face is awfully close, magazine works. Just a matter of a fresh barrel or perhaps even reboring what's there. Here's someone who did it at home, like a cordite-scented Julia Childs: https://rifleshooter.com/2019/10/building-a-9mm-bolt-action-rifle/

I find this appealing, and in an effort to help the enormously talented Mr. Paul Cook to cover his mortgage, I'd send all the bits his way. So what's the holdup?

RIA lists their sole dealer in Canada as Cabelas. I called my local shop here today, listened to their phone ring for three solid minutes, and finally spoke with a woman who I assume works there. "I understand Cabelas is a dealer for RIA products. Is it possible to order a rifle from them through you?"

"No" she said. Sounded pretty definitive.

Open to ideas here, folks. What do you think? I'm aware of the mauser conversions that used to be available form Rhineland, but I can't abide that ugly-ass ejector pokling out the side of the rifle. Plus it appears they don't make them anymore.
 
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It's been done on a CZ 527... with extensive smith work involved. Find a competent smith, and start there?
Curtis Tactical made a run of about 200 rifles on a customized 700 action a few years ago.
The bottom metal on any available action would be the most difficult part, if it were to be Glock or 1911 mag fed.

Anything is possible... just get yer wallet out.

R.
 
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I'm interested but it's not something I've seen before. Would be a great gun to plink with at camp or for the recoil-shy like kids and girlfriends.
 
I'd be happy with a modern 9x19 took rifle but a bolt gun would be fun. If manufacturers can make rifle rounds that headspace on the case mouth they should be able to make a pistol cal work if the market was demanding it
 
call2arms said:
I would consider changing a 223 Remington 788 to 9 mm
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Barrel.
Bolt face alterations, including installation of an extractor.
Magazine system. The rather narrow slot on the bottom of a 788 receiver would suggest that a single stack would be the way to go. Something like a 1911/9mm magazine. Lahti magazines are really inexpensive. Making a housing with mag catch assembly would be time consuming, requiring a lot of experimentation.

Unless DIY, it would be an expensive conversion.
 
tiriaq said:
Barrel.
Bolt face alterations, including installation of an extractor.
Magazine system. The rather narrow slot on the bottom of a 788 receiver would suggest that a single stack would be the way to go. Something like a 1911/9mm magazine. Lahti magazines are really inexpensive. Making a housing with mag catch assembly would be time consuming, requiring a lot of experimentation.

Unless DIY, it would be an expensive conversion.
Click to expand...

Biggest issue is mag angles, as you know. Trying to get the Lee to feed from 9mm 1911 magazines, was beyond frustrating. If there was a narrow straight mag, that would be the best, then you just need to set the height.
 
I loved my Destroyer and used it for 20+yrs for plinking & hunting. It shot tight to 80yds with the irons with my pet cast loads using .358 boolits resized to .356".
No need to mess with reworking these rifles to the shorter 9x19 round as the 9mm Bergman/Bayard (Largo) is easy to get brass for from Starline. I used 38 Super dies & brass to load my one after turning the rim diameter down from .405" to 392" on the lathe. I wouldn't go with 9x23 brass in a Destroyer as it be too short for the Largo chamber and factory rounds and IPSC loads can easily over-stress the action on these carbines.
DESTROYER 9mm.jpg
I wish I'd kept mine longer but me old peepers ain't worth a poop now with open iron sights. Ugh.

As noted above, a 788 would be fun in a 9x19 but requires a fair bit of tinkering to get 'er done right. A nice option for a .223 Rem 788 conversion fer me
would be to re-barrel to 350 Legend. With the new tube install, the only other work would be a tweeking of the feed lips on the 223 magazine.

The US SOG folks did up a batch of 788's during the Vietnam war in .45 ACP using the .473" bolt face action and Colt 1911 mags with suppressors that proved effective on ops. I'd be happy with one of those buggers.
 

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There was a young guy making them here in NZ, but the beaurocratic BS got the better of him and he has moved to the US to continue making very classy pistol calibre carbines. Was operating as "Marshall Precision" Google may help.
I presently have a cheap and nasty Norinco 223 at the gunsmith having the 223 barrel replaced with a 9" 9mm barrel. We will be using 1911 mags. Its an easy conversion and despite its very agricultural finish the Norinco is remarkably accurate. Hopefully the 9mm will be as accurate. As the bolt doesnt have to travel rearwards as far, the gunsmith is simply machining another bolt stop lip about halfway along the bolt. Bottom metal will be custom made to take the 1911 mags. Overall a simple and not too expensive rebuild.
In NZ we are allowed to use suppressors so this will have a carbon over barrel suppressor made for it kinda like a DeLisle suppressor. And will probably have a red dot fitted rather than a scope.
 
Backcountryal said:
There was a young guy making them here in NZ, but the beaurocratic BS got the better of him and he has moved to the US to continue making very classy pistol calibre carbines. Was operating as "Marshall Precision" Google may help.
I presently have a cheap and nasty Norinco 223 at the gunsmith having the 223 barrel replaced with a 9" 9mm barrel. We will be using 1911 mags. Its an easy conversion and despite its very agricultural finish the Norinco is remarkably accurate. Hopefully the 9mm will be as accurate. As the bolt doesnt have to travel rearwards as far, the gunsmith is simply machining another bolt stop lip about halfway along the bolt. Bottom metal will be custom made to take the 1911 mags. Overall a simple and not too expensive rebuild.
In NZ we are allowed to use suppressors so this will have a carbon over barrel suppressor made for it kinda like a DeLisle suppressor. And will probably have a red dot fitted rather than a scope.
Click to expand...

Well, hey, southern cousin. :) Thanks very much for the input.

I'd love to see pictures of that, even as a work in progress. Very curious how he sorted the magazine issue.

Dan
 
Backcountryal said:
There was a young guy making them here in NZ, but the beaurocratic BS got the better of him and he has moved to the US to continue making very classy pistol calibre carbines. Was operating as "Marshall Precision" Google may help.
I presently have a cheap and nasty Norinco 223 at the gunsmith having the 223 barrel replaced with a 9" 9mm barrel. We will be using 1911 mags. Its an easy conversion and despite its very agricultural finish the Norinco is remarkably accurate. Hopefully the 9mm will be as accurate. As the bolt doesnt have to travel rearwards as far, the gunsmith is simply machining another bolt stop lip about halfway along the bolt. Bottom metal will be custom made to take the 1911 mags. Overall a simple and not too expensive rebuild.
In NZ we are allowed to use suppressors so this will have a carbon over barrel suppressor made for it kinda like a DeLisle suppressor. And will probably have a red dot fitted rather than a scope.
Click to expand...

Immediately after reading the OP the wheels started to turn here.. I have several P13-14 actions left over from a "bubba era" of my life...of course they are extremely long, heavy actions for a 9MM project but their available and if a guy manufactured a bolt stop that shortened the stroke a bunch, they just might work in an "available sort of pinch"...Im like DAD I've got a bushel of 9mil loaded & brass but no pistol anymore....the wheels are gonna turn on this one for the rest of the winter as I do have the machining shop equipment to facilitate action/magazine work
 
A catch when using a full sized front locking action for 9mm is that there is a long inherent jump from the magazine to the chamber. A rear locking action does place the chamber mouth closer to the magazine. But there can still be feeding problems.
 
For a number of years I've wanted a pistol calibre rifle for pest control work, and just having fun. The Camp9 would have fitted the bill nicely, but semi auto centre fire rifles were mostly banned back in 2019. I asked one of NZ's top gunsmiths, now retired, what he would suggest for a bolt 9mm. He suggested the Norinco/Bisley as he considered it required little alteration to actually work. Its a rear locking action, so no problems shortening the bolt throw. The bolt face for the 223 and the 9mm is the same. And the Norinco has a fully adjustable trigger that looks horrific, but is in fact easily tuned to give an excellent trigger pull.
I was able to buy a couple of barrels from Marshall Precision before he departed for the States. From memory they're 9 or 10", Remington thread, chambered, and the muzzle is also threaded. We are gonna recut the thread smaller to fit in to the smaller Norinco action, and use a barrel nut for head spacing. The barrel nut will also have a parallel section that is proved for an O ring, for the suppressor to seal up on at the rear.
The 1911 magazine will be right at the front of the action, pretty close to the barrel and the gunsmith sees no immediate problems with feeding issues. My son is a mechanical engineer, and does amazing CAD work. He will be making up the bottom "metal"/bedding block, initially 3D printed to iron out any issues, and then machined from aluminium for the final product. We will them work out what the stock configuration will ultimately be, possibly an AR style butt and the suppressor as the forend. Or maybe more traditional with the bedding block set in to a wooden stock.
This rifle will be used mostly for feral goat control on a gold claim, definitely wont be your classic safe queen/wall hanger. Its likely to gain some work credibility and marking in a short period of time. If we go the way of the AR style, have even thought a left hand action with a right handed pistol grip would speed up the reloading needed for mobs of goats at short range.
 
The 77/357. That's been on my personal list for a long time, too.

There appear to be a number of solutions, all involving the usual sacrifice of blood and/or treasure. One hopes there's a cheap way to do this and have solid results. That TCM22 conversion seems the quickest, cleanest, easiest way. Don't know if they're importing into our country, though.
 
Next gov't ban: "Any Firearm Chambered For A Cartridge Intended/Invented For Military Use" Like 9mm Para, 45ACP, 5.56 Nato, 45/70 Govt, etc.

Sole purpose of these rds. are for killing people(they'll use this for an excuse). Some counties have this restriction already.
 
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