mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Kevin,
What kind of velocities are they getting out of a 16" with the BH 70gr?? I hav egotten my hands on some 70gr TTSX and want to see what i can replicate....
blake
What AR15 barrel length is the most relevant.
- Thread starter cancer
- Start date
Kevin,
What kind of velocities are they getting out of a 16" with the BH 70gr?? I hav egotten my hands on some 70gr TTSX and want to see what i can replicate....
blake
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
yu
I think I will wade into this one with my thoughts on it. I'm one of those guys who used a 24", braked, SS heavy barreled, hand-loaded AR at NSCC for the last two years placing pretty well in the Grand Agg both times.
This is who shot what in the top 10 at NSCC this year.
1st - AR, 24"ish SS Heavy Braked Match Barrel machined down somewhat, mid range + variable optic with hand loads.
2. Same as 1, except used mid range variable and 77 gr SMK handloads
3. Stock C7A1
4. Stock C7A1, (but I think he used an C79A2 scope)
5. Same as 2 but used 69 gr SMK handloads
6. Standard AR 20" Heavy Barrell with ELCAN, not sure about ammo
7. Same as 6, but used a 1-4 variable and 69 gr moly handloads
8.Stock C7A2
9.C7A1
10. C7A1
These are all very accomplished shooters, with 3 Queen's medalists in the group. The spread wasn't that much,, but if I had my choice I would shoot my AR over a C7 any day (who wouldn't?).
I placed 5th at NSCC shooting my AR, and placed 4th at CFSAC with a stock C7A1.
Optics: Pretty well anything is better than the ELCAN. There are 3 areas where the Elcan comes up short against a nice 3-9 power variable. The first is power, and power at the 300-500m points allows you to site with greater precision, particularly in the deliberates where you can dial up to 9x. For most of the snaps and rapids, and the rundowns, you will be dialed down to 4x-6x. The second factor is the reticle itself. The Elcan blocky post just doesn't allow you to get as precise an aiming point as a dual-plex or fine cross hair will. The third factor is in the stability of the optic's mounts,, I don't thing we need to go into that. The ELCAN mount is so unreliable, that at times you don't know if it is you, the ammo, the wind, or Mr. Elcan doing it's thing again. Some Elcans work fine,, fine for a while, maybe fine for a month, but it seems they will always let you down at some time. It you can get an Elcan to work fine throughout CFSAC, then the gods are smiling., if it thunders in, then he's probably smiling too. Most shooters don't even know if their Elcan is acting up. So, yes a good variable is good for at least 10-15 points over the Elcan in the Grand Agg.
Ammo: Tested and proven handloads shooting a good heavy bullet (69-77 gr) will always outshot IVI or RUAG any day, and every day. If you are an accomplished shooter, you can expect 10-15 more points in the Aggregate, and double the number of Vs.
The Barrel: Not as much as an advantage as one would think in the Canadian game. Most standard 20" HB would keep up with the 24" match Barrels in this game. They might be behind a couple of points in the deliberates and maybe a handful of Vs, but not as much as the cost of one would equate to.
So, put all that together, good solid variable optics, a half decent barrel, and good reliable ammo, then you have a solid platform that you can rest assured will be there if you are there.
Not so with a C7 though. And that is where confidence in your kit comes into play. When I drop points with my AR, I know exactly what to correct. When I drop points with a C7, I don't have that same confidence, it could be one of 3 things, instead of just the one.
Can a stock C7 keep up with a marksman's AR?,, yes, but it will be a challenge. And, only if that C7 has everything working fine: a barrel that groups well, and likes the lot of ammo that you are shooting, an optic mount that is solid and repeatable, a trigger that isn't gritty or feels like a two or 3 stage. It is rare to find a C7 that will do all these, and it is rarer to find one that can keep it of for a month or two.
Will a souped up AR get you in the top 10 at NSCC?,, not a chance in hell unless the shooter is an experienced elite level shooter. You are rubbing shoulders with the best and kit won't get you a seat in the chair. The reverse however is true: if you have bad kit, or unreliable kit, then you will never get a ride in the chair no matter how well you perform on your end.
When I shoot my AR, my comfort zone is looking for a 575 in stage 1.
When I shoot my C7, my comfort zone is looking for a 550 in stage 1.
Of the 4 AR shooters in the top 10 at NSCC, two were Queen's medalists and the other two can be considered some of the best the CF has or has had. All 4 are dedicated shooters who shoot alot and who's comfort zone is always at or near the top.
The next AR shooter at NSCC placed 27th, so 11-26th place were all CF shooters with stock C7s.
Anyway,, lots of good shooting happened at NSCC and at CFSAC. I was much impressed with LFWA Reserve Teams performance. They trained hard, and they were rewarded for it.
Next year,,, look out.
Dave
PS: for service rifle shooting in Canada, a 16" barrel will be at a disadvantage to the 20" to 24" guys (all at 500m,, they don't give much if anything away at the 200 and 300m mounds). When the wind is not a problem, you may not see much difference, it becomes very obvious when the wind is variable and you are shooting past 200 metres. So, if you want to do well at Connaught at NSCC, you would do well to stick with a 20" barrel and try and get good bullet speed with your hand loads. If not, your 16" barreled AR will be a step behind the stock 20" barreled guys at 500m and in Stage II. A step behind, means you will always be a step behind the guy riding in the char.
A 20" will be on par with the 24" guys. You still have to factor in ammo and optics, and they can be a big leveler.
I think I will wade into this one with my thoughts on it. I'm one of those guys who used a 24", braked, SS heavy barreled, hand-loaded AR at NSCC for the last two years placing pretty well in the Grand Agg both times.
This is who shot what in the top 10 at NSCC this year.
1st - AR, 24"ish SS Heavy Braked Match Barrel machined down somewhat, mid range + variable optic with hand loads.
2. Same as 1, except used mid range variable and 77 gr SMK handloads
3. Stock C7A1
4. Stock C7A1, (but I think he used an C79A2 scope)
5. Same as 2 but used 69 gr SMK handloads
6. Standard AR 20" Heavy Barrell with ELCAN, not sure about ammo
7. Same as 6, but used a 1-4 variable and 69 gr moly handloads
8.Stock C7A2
9.C7A1
10. C7A1
These are all very accomplished shooters, with 3 Queen's medalists in the group. The spread wasn't that much,, but if I had my choice I would shoot my AR over a C7 any day (who wouldn't?).
I placed 5th at NSCC shooting my AR, and placed 4th at CFSAC with a stock C7A1.
Optics: Pretty well anything is better than the ELCAN. There are 3 areas where the Elcan comes up short against a nice 3-9 power variable. The first is power, and power at the 300-500m points allows you to site with greater precision, particularly in the deliberates where you can dial up to 9x. For most of the snaps and rapids, and the rundowns, you will be dialed down to 4x-6x. The second factor is the reticle itself. The Elcan blocky post just doesn't allow you to get as precise an aiming point as a dual-plex or fine cross hair will. The third factor is in the stability of the optic's mounts,, I don't thing we need to go into that. The ELCAN mount is so unreliable, that at times you don't know if it is you, the ammo, the wind, or Mr. Elcan doing it's thing again. Some Elcans work fine,, fine for a while, maybe fine for a month, but it seems they will always let you down at some time. It you can get an Elcan to work fine throughout CFSAC, then the gods are smiling., if it thunders in, then he's probably smiling too. Most shooters don't even know if their Elcan is acting up. So, yes a good variable is good for at least 10-15 points over the Elcan in the Grand Agg.
Ammo: Tested and proven handloads shooting a good heavy bullet (69-77 gr) will always outshot IVI or RUAG any day, and every day. If you are an accomplished shooter, you can expect 10-15 more points in the Aggregate, and double the number of Vs.
The Barrel: Not as much as an advantage as one would think in the Canadian game. Most standard 20" HB would keep up with the 24" match Barrels in this game. They might be behind a couple of points in the deliberates and maybe a handful of Vs, but not as much as the cost of one would equate to.
So, put all that together, good solid variable optics, a half decent barrel, and good reliable ammo, then you have a solid platform that you can rest assured will be there if you are there.
Not so with a C7 though. And that is where confidence in your kit comes into play. When I drop points with my AR, I know exactly what to correct. When I drop points with a C7, I don't have that same confidence, it could be one of 3 things, instead of just the one.
Can a stock C7 keep up with a marksman's AR?,, yes, but it will be a challenge. And, only if that C7 has everything working fine: a barrel that groups well, and likes the lot of ammo that you are shooting, an optic mount that is solid and repeatable, a trigger that isn't gritty or feels like a two or 3 stage. It is rare to find a C7 that will do all these, and it is rarer to find one that can keep it of for a month or two.
Will a souped up AR get you in the top 10 at NSCC?,, not a chance in hell unless the shooter is an experienced elite level shooter. You are rubbing shoulders with the best and kit won't get you a seat in the chair. The reverse however is true: if you have bad kit, or unreliable kit, then you will never get a ride in the chair no matter how well you perform on your end.
When I shoot my AR, my comfort zone is looking for a 575 in stage 1.
When I shoot my C7, my comfort zone is looking for a 550 in stage 1.
Of the 4 AR shooters in the top 10 at NSCC, two were Queen's medalists and the other two can be considered some of the best the CF has or has had. All 4 are dedicated shooters who shoot alot and who's comfort zone is always at or near the top.
The next AR shooter at NSCC placed 27th, so 11-26th place were all CF shooters with stock C7s.
Anyway,, lots of good shooting happened at NSCC and at CFSAC. I was much impressed with LFWA Reserve Teams performance. They trained hard, and they were rewarded for it.
Next year,,, look out.
Dave
PS: for service rifle shooting in Canada, a 16" barrel will be at a disadvantage to the 20" to 24" guys (all at 500m,, they don't give much if anything away at the 200 and 300m mounds). When the wind is not a problem, you may not see much difference, it becomes very obvious when the wind is variable and you are shooting past 200 metres. So, if you want to do well at Connaught at NSCC, you would do well to stick with a 20" barrel and try and get good bullet speed with your hand loads. If not, your 16" barreled AR will be a step behind the stock 20" barreled guys at 500m and in Stage II. A step behind, means you will always be a step behind the guy riding in the char.
A 20" will be on par with the 24" guys. You still have to factor in ammo and optics, and they can be a big leveler.
In 2004 the Agg went to a 16" and the 500m deliberate and 30m deliberates where won by 16" guns (one had an ACOG even)
If a unit has (or is able to create) rifle team guns that are not beated up in the field - your at a huge advantage.
Blake - I will chrono some this week -- I'm guess our 16" Colt Canada barrel will be similar to Colt Canada's 16" Colt Canada barrel
If a unit has (or is able to create) rifle team guns that are not beated up in the field - your at a huge advantage.
Blake - I will chrono some this week -- I'm guess our 16" Colt Canada barrel will be similar to Colt Canada's 16" Colt Canada barrel
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
Did you ever pick up your award for that one (300m deliberate - 50.6)?
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Blake - I will chrono some this week -- I'm guess our 16" Colt Canada barrel will be similar to Colt Canada's 16" Colt Canada barrel
Yeah, they should be about the same. Thanks man - much appreciated...
- Location
- on the road again
that's a more of a contest rather than a competition because invitations are sent on a very select and exclusive basis. the same for the guns used there; some of the best in the world, but in the hands of only some agencies and units, they are very customised and unique. some of the instructors and students from my university are commenting on and keeping track of the results every year after that contest
One more thing: there is no gas-oped class as you said . The gas operated guns are all compounded in the class called <<self - loading weapons>>.
but, why don't you say about Ted's ARs wth 28-30 inch bull barrels ? how can such heavy barrels stay in console without putting any stress on the receiver? when do you decide to go public with the solution of that design ? Any more builds i mean for regular people ? what's the gas system solution used on that ? like a dissipator or like what ? what kind of gas block ? did you give the design to Dlask yet ? come on, give all the story , all the details , dude ... why the secrecy ?
juanvaldez
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sudbury, Ontario
Yes...but ask yourself this...What would Rita MacNeil use?
RCMP and FBI testing have shown that with proper ammuntion 5.56mm is much less likley to over penetrate than common handgun ammuntion.
I take it you don't have much of a background in ballistics testing.
No, I got an award? (Damn) - my 500m score was dismal -- I had run out of Mk262 and used 69gr Gold Medal, and I had a ####ty day.
Andy Webber had a 16" bull barrel gun that won the 500m deliberate - kicking some 20" and 24" gun ass, and he had a C79A2 scope...
FBI test results disagree with you. Between the two, I'll pick FBI.
Take this a lesson learned on not talking about a subject you have absolutely no knowledge about.
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Ok, I'll wade in for a minute or two here with a couple of, perhaps disjointed thoughts...
First, is it Military, LEO, or competition that you're after, or a compromise between the three?
And what sort of competitive shooting are you doing?
Police are embracing the "Patrol Carbine" from what I've seen/heard/read, and there's C-8's popping up all over the place (or local equivelant from the M-16 FOW being a classic choice, however, some departments such as Halifax Police are using the P-90.)
For Military weapons/shotoers, well, general issue almost worldwide with the 5.56 round, is still with a 20"-ish barrel, be it a SA-80 (20.4"), M-16 (20") Sig 550 (20.8"), G-36 (18.9"), Steyr Aug (20.0"), Famas (19.2") or the C-7/A1/A2 with a 20" barrel.
There are variants of practially every one of the above weapons with a shorter barrel length, but, the general issue weapon is still about a 20" barrel.
Competition shooters, well, the observed trend in Service Rifle matches seems to be heading towards longer barrels, though highly skilled shooters (ASW, KevinB, the QM7) have had success with short barrels.
An IPSC shooter will find it practically impossible to make the necessary power factor with a barrel of less than 16" with factory ammo, but will definitely make PF with a 20" barrel.
If you're looking for a compromise rifle between what the three groups are using, then a 20" will suit your needs, and be, perhaps the most "relevant" as it's the most used barrel length.
If you're looking for someone to bless you with the thought that you're a specialist and should have a carbine, then consider yourself blest that you can buy whatever you want, instead of having to use what you're issued.
Personally, I have a pair of 20" barrelled rifles at home, and do not feel myself disadvantaged by them at all. I had an 11.5" upper that shot a pretty little 4" group at 200 yards, but I found myself not using it at all.
YMMV, but the nice thing about the AR Platform is that if you feel you need a different barrel length, you're 2 push-pins away from a new upper.
NS
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
Non scientific testing.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
But interesting.
Note the universal conclusion:
"Shooting stuff is fun."
NS
Shelldrake
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Right behind you,,
The oft' quoted article,,,
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=27
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
KB,
I stand corrected.
NS
I stand corrected.
NS
16" is the new black. 20" is mostly legacy thinking from the 70's and 80's when 5.56 was first procured (especially with the bullpups).
Most of the recently procurements are in the 14.5 and 16.5 range. Norwegian 416, our own C8A3, huge number of M4 in the US, Slovenian's FN2000, IDF's CTAR (Only the grenadier got the 20" to mount 203) , Taiwan T86 carbine and swedish upgraded AK5C.
Most of the recently procurements are in the 14.5 and 16.5 range. Norwegian 416, our own C8A3, huge number of M4 in the US, Slovenian's FN2000, IDF's CTAR (Only the grenadier got the 20" to mount 203) , Taiwan T86 carbine and swedish upgraded AK5C.
