What are Ghost Ring Sights?

Boomer said:
I contend, that when aiming if you can see contrast between the bull and the paper over the front sight, then either the front sight is held too low resulting in a miss, or the target is in focus.

?????

When target shooting, ie. Full Bore, daylight below the aiming circle won't result in a low hit because you've accounted for the distance from bottom of circle to center of bull with your sights.

When sighting in your rifle/shotgun with same round circle, it's the generally accepted method to still use a 6 o'clock hold, and adjust your point of impact to hit just above the front sight post (just like dotting an 'i'), which results in your group printing at the bottom of the circle/square, whatever else you may be using as an aiming point.

And no, your target does not have to be in focus in order to see daylight under an aiming point, just like one's peripheral vision is not in focus, but you can still see what's going on around you.

Boomer said:
Because the target is in focus you can minimize the amount of space between the front sight and the bull. If the front sight is a rectangular post, sitting the bull on top of the post is fairly easy. Because both the front sight and the target are in focus - again with an aperture rather than an open rear sight - the front sight and the bull does not blend into one another as they can with an open sight aiming system.

The front sight doesn't blend into the bull with a traditional open sight any more than it does with an aperture - just like shooting a handgun, your front sight is in focus and your target and rear sight are somewhat out of focus.

Boomer, maybe we should get your definition of in focus. It seems to me that you consider something in focus if you can see it's outline, but not necessarily in detail; at least that's what I get from your writing.

Boomer said:
No matter how hard you concentrate on the front sight the bull does not get fuzzy. At least this has been my experience, but I am not a competitive shooter. However the discussion is around ghost rings not target peep sights, which to my way of thinking are built backwards - small aperture large ring.

I still maintain that if you try the experiment I detailed, rather than just usinga large, coloured insert as you wrote about, that you will see what is being argued here.
 
Boomer, do you own a rifle or handgun with a serrated front site?
Like this
image

If so..when all is said and done, you should be able to see the lines on the sight when you fire a shot. If you don't..the front sight isn't in focus.
 
I own 3 handguns with the type of front sight you describe. When I shoot I can see the serrations on the front sight of these guns, given good light. When I shoot my 590 with the colored insert, I can see the seam around the insert. When I shoot my wife's '06 I can see the detail of the white line center marker on the front sight. My .375's front sight is simply a brass rectangular post, but again, when I sight with it the edges are crisp and clear. There is no question about my concentration on the front sight. When I shoot a handgun, the target looses focus - again as I've said because you cannot manage 3 points of focus, and you cannot see past the rear sight as you can with an aperture. Even so, neither sight when I shoot a handgun is far enough away from my eye to be in my long range depth of field, where as the front sight of my long guns which are fitted with aperture rear sights position the front sight in my long range depth of field. Thus no matter how hard I focus on the front sight, the target does not loose focus. By the way - try a rectangular brass front sight some time - it's incredible. It shows up black against a light background, and shows up white against a dark background.

Just for interest's sake, the distance from the face of the front sight of a 6" revolver to my eye with a standard two hand hold is 25.5". The distance from my eye to the face of the front sight of a 20" carbine is 32". I maintain an object 32" away from the eye is in far field focus, and concentrating on it does not cause the backgound to loose focus - unless the focus is held for a period of time which would allow the eye to fatigue.

Your explanation concerning the focus of the target I believe is flawed. If holding the bull at 6:00 on a post front sight blurs, any visible space between the bottom of the bull and the top of the front sight will be compromised. If you attempt to keep a consistent space visible you will string your shots vertically. This only happens to me in poor light, because when I shoot a rifle equipped with an aperture rear sight and post front sight, both the front sight and the target are in focus, and my groups, as a rule, do not string. With an open rear sight, you must change your focus to prevent this from happeneing, with an aperture I do not. Therefore I can make the shot quickly, and with greater precision.
 
Your explanation concerning the focus of the target I believe is flawed. If holding the bull at 6:00 on a post front sight blurs, any visible space between the bottom of the bull and the top of the front sight will be compromised. If you attempt to keep a consistent space visible you will string your shots vertically. This only happens to me in poor light, because when I shoot a rifle equipped with an aperture rear sight and post front sight, both the front sight and the target are in focus, and my groups, as a rule, do not string. With an open rear sight, you must change your focus to prevent this from happeneing, with an aperture I do not. Therefore I can make the shot quickly, and with greater precision.[/QUOTE]

No, not flawed, just the accepted standard for the last 80-90 years, that's all. The name of the game with shooting is consistancy; it's much easier to keep a consistant patch of white under a black aiming point than it is to center a black sight on a black bull (This is anothe reason you see the proliferation of benchrest-type targets; a white square surrounded by a thick black outline - rather than just a plain black square). The only movement will be that due to breathing, muscle movement or pulse, just like if you were aiming directly at the bull - in fact, one will be less likely to string their shots using the method as I described because of the simple fact it's easier to keep a standard sliver of white under the scoring rings.

Seriously Boomer, if you can see sights like you say you can, you should get yourself down to one of the major universities, because they'd like to study you.
 
When shooting at paper with metallic sights, the sight picture I want is the bull sitting on the top of the front post. I see the entire curve of the bull above the front post with no white showing below it. If the bull were out of focus, this would not be possible as the image of the front sight and the bull would blend together and be unusable. This sight picture enables me to shoot consistently, as I do not have to be concerned with the width of the white above the post.
 
Boomer said:
When shooting at paper with metallic sights, the sight picture I want is the bull sitting on the top of the front post. I see the entire curve of the bull above the front post with no white showing below it. If the bull were out of focus, this would not be possible as the image of the front sight and the bull would blend together and be unusable. This sight picture enables me to shoot consistently, as I do not have to be concerned with the width of the white above the post.

What you're saying doesn't make sense; when you are describing the bull, do you mean the actual X-ring, or the darker scoring rings of which the X-ring is in the center? Because if you're aiming at the center of a black circle or square, it's too indistinct of an aiming point for shooting tiny groups, ie. it blends together, whereas if you keep a consistant sliver of daylight below the aiming point, it's much more precise; if there is no daylight between the front post and aiming point, it is too easy to get errors in elevation because the colour of the front sight and target are too similar and tend to blend.

If you can see the full curve of the bull as you describe it sitting on top of the front post, you would at the least be seeing equal white at the edges of the front post - unless of course you have a concave top on your front post.
 
What I am talking about is an 8" black bullseye, printed on white paper. The X ring is white, but I ignore it when I am shooting without magnification. Yes, only the very bottom of the circle rests on the flat top of the front sight, and yes, you see white on either side of the bottom of the bull. This provides me with a reliable index for centering my point of aim. My front sight does not blend in with the color of the bull, because none of my front rifle sights are plain black.
 
Boomer said:
What I am talking about is an 8" black bullseye, printed on white paper. The X ring is white, but I ignore it when I am shooting without magnification. Yes, only the very bottom of the circle rests on the flat top of the front sight, and yes, you see white on either side of the bottom of the bull. This provides me with a reliable index for centering my point of aim. My front sight does not blend in with the color of the bull, because none of my front rifle sights are plain black.

I think you would see what I and Striker were talking about if you were to try the same thing with a black front sight, and it would be even more readily apparent using a black square as an aiming point.
 
So then what you guys are talking about is the inability of the eye to see black on black, which has nothing to do with focusing on 2 objects at different distances simultaneously. Because my guns where bought or built with a serious purpose in mind, the sights where chosen accordingly so as not to disappear into the background, especially at night.

I have never seen a front sight which works as well as the brass post on my .375. The factory front sight on the 590 is not perfect, but is good enough that it does not warrant the cost of upgrading. The black post with a white center line on the '06 also prevents the sight from getting lost on the background quite well, although it is not as good as the brass post. I am having a custom front sight built for my .44 carry gun as well as other tweaking, and while the front sight is steel so there is a hard surface to prevent holster wear, a brass face will be dovetailed into the face of the Baughman front sight.
 
If I may interject...

Boomer. Regardless of what you refer to as 'focus' or 'in focus' or 'blurry'... it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to have two items at DIFFERENT RANGES 'in focus' at the same time. It is NOT possible with the human eye.

Can you focus binoculars on a rock 10 feet away, and have a tree 300 yards away ALSO in focus (the literal term, not what you describe as 'in focus') at the same time? NO.

If you have this special ability, it would be best that you see a doctor, because you have the only set of eyes in the world that can do this.
 
So when you see a tree in the foreground and a mountain in the back ground are not both in focus? What we are talking about here is depth of field. Many optical instruments have a very shallow or very specific depths of field - such as microscopes, camera lenses and binoculars, others have a deeper depth of field like some rifle scopes. The human eye is a marvelous instrument in that it's long range focus can include objects fairly close to the eye - say 30" while still being able to see things in the distance which are also in focus. Focusing on a mosquito flying right in your face will cause you to loose focus of far field objects. But our depth of field cannot recognize the difference between the tree in front of the mountain, or a front sight against the mountain - both are in focus.
 
The problem is your definition of focus. It is not correct.

fo·cus (fks)
n. pl. fo·cus·es or fo·ci (-s, -k)
1.
a. A point at which rays of light or other radiation converge or from which they appear to diverge, as after refraction or reflection in an optical system: the focus of a lens. Also called focal point.
b. See focal length.
2.
a. The distinctness or clarity of an image rendered by an optical system.
b. The state of maximum distinctness or clarity of such an image: in focus; out of focus.
c. An apparatus used to adjust the focal length of an optical system in order to make an image distinct or clear

By definition, a FOCUS can only be on ONE POINT. Not multiple, one. You may be able to SEE other items in the distance while FOCUSING on the front sight, but they are, by definition, OUT OF FOCUS.

If your definition of 'focus' was correct, your arguement would be correct. But since it's not, it's not.
 
Boomer said:
So when you see a tree in the foreground and a mountain in the back ground are not both in focus? What we are talking about here is depth of field. Many optical instruments have a very shallow or very specific depths of field - such as microscopes, camera lenses and binoculars, others have a deeper depth of field like some rifle scopes. The human eye is a marvelous instrument in that it's long range focus can include objects fairly close to the eye - say 30" while still being able to see things in the distance which are also in focus. Focusing on a mosquito flying right in your face will cause you to loose focus of far field objects. But our depth of field cannot recognize the difference between the tree in front of the mountain, or a front sight against the mountain - both are in focus.

Again, Boomer, your definition of "in focus" seems to mean "aware of the background".

Like I said in an earlier post, if you are looking at a mountain 5 miles away and there is a tree 4.90 miles away, yes, they will both appear to be in focus.

Now, if you have a tree at 5 yards between you and the mountain that's 5 miles away, and you focus on the tree, the mountain will not be in focus. Yes, you will still be able to see the mountain, and you will still be able to determine a fair amount of detail with your peripheral vision, but the mountain WILL NOT be in exactly the same sharp, clear focus that the tree is in. It is a physical impossibility.

Like I and others have said, Boomer, if what you say is true (and sorry to say, but I don't believe you), you owe it to mankind to get examined, because you have the only set of eyes in the history of manking that can do what you claim.
 
Now this is interesting. How does your eye tell the difference between a distant tree and a front sight? The answer is that it cannot. It's like when I'm hunting seals on an overcast day. You see a dark colored seal out in the distance on a white featureless background. Is the seal 3' long at 100 yards, or is it 9' long at 300 yards. There is no way of knowing without a laser rangefinder. Knowing that the top of your front sight subtends 12" at 100 yards is of no help judging the range if you do not know the size of your target.

If you look at a distant pole which appears to be similar in width and height to your front sight, in a featureless background, you would be unable to judge if one was closer than the other. If they appear to be the same distance away, they will both be in focus. The only way the human eye can judge range is by comparison. Comparison to an object of a known size or by comparison to the surrounding topography. If you remove the means of comparison, you remove the means of estimating range. If we could look at two objects in the distance and say the one on the left was at 200 yards because it was out of focus, rangefinders would be redundant.
 
canucklehead said:
The problem is your definition of focus. It is not correct.

fo·cus (fks)
n. pl. fo·cus·es or fo·ci (-s, -k)
1.
a. A point at which rays of light or other radiation converge or from which they appear to diverge, as after refraction or reflection in an optical system: the focus of a lens. Also called focal point.
b. See focal length.
2.
a. The distinctness or clarity of an image rendered by an optical system.
b. The state of maximum distinctness or clarity of such an image: in focus; out of focus.
c. An apparatus used to adjust the focal length of an optical system in order to make an image distinct or clear

By definition, a FOCUS can only be on ONE POINT. Not multiple, one. You may be able to SEE other items in the distance while FOCUSING on the front sight, but they are, by definition, OUT OF FOCUS.

If your definition of 'focus' was correct, your arguement would be correct. But since it's not, it's not.

As I explained previously, optical intstruments have specific depths of field. You offer nothing concerning the eye's ability, or it's lack there of.
 
Boomer said:
If you look at a distant pole which appears to be similar in width and height to your front sight, in a featureless background, you would be unable to judge if one was closer than the other. If they appear to be the same distance away, they will both be in focus. The only way the human eye can judge range is by comparison. Comparison to an object of a known size or by comparison to the surrounding topography. If you remove the means of comparison, you remove the means of estimating range. If we could look at two objects in the distance and say the one on the left was at 200 yards because it was out of focus, rangefinders would be redundant.

You continue to talk in circles Boomer. With the pole and front sight analogy you use, they will not be in focus; it is very simple to tell which one is farther away - if you focus on the front sight, the farther one will be the one out of focus, and vis versa.

We're not talking about range finding - we're talking about the eyes inability to have two objects at different disances in focus. By your range finding analogy, you apparently can't decide if a seal 5 yards away is closer than one 200 yards away on a featureless background, because as you say, they will both be in your far range of focus and both equally in focus.
 
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Boomer said:
As I explained previously, optical intstruments have specific depths of field. You offer nothing concerning the eye's ability, or it's lack there of.

And of course you have medical documentation to back this up.
 
Okay, let me get this right, once and for all!

From wikipedia (i know, not absolute truth, but they got this one right!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field
In optics, particularly film and photography, the depth of field (DOF) is the distance in front of and behind the subject which appears to be in focus. For any given lens setting, there is only one distance at which a subject is precisely in focus, but focus falls off gradually on either side of that distance, so there is a region in which the blurring is tolerable. This region is greater behind the point of focus than it is in front, as the angle of the light rays change more rapidly; they approach being parallel with increasing distance.

Read the whole article. It will explain why you THINK you are right, but why you are ACTUALLY wrong. :)

I do admire your committment to your ideas though... you are not easily dissuaded!
 
Of coarse not. The very first sentence explains why I am right and you are wrong - "In optics, particularly film and photography . . ." I have a rudimentary knowledge of how focus and depth of field works in camera systems, and the eye works differently. For example a 50 mm lens in a camera is considered a normal lens, in that photographers generally accept that the 50mm lens sees what the eye sees. But the closest a 50 mm lens can focus is about 2' - and of course the eye can focus much closer than that. Conversely a 500 mm lens has a very narrow depth of field - if you take a picture of a fox head on, it's eye might be in sharp focus, but everything behind it's shoulder is out of focus. This is because the camera lens compresses distance, but the eye does not. Interestingly enough camera lenses increase their depth of field by adjusting their F stops - which is in effect an aperture inside the lens body.

jaycee, I am only talking in circles because you are refusing to accept what I tell you, so the discussion is likely to go round and round adnauseum. But fear not, I will continue to try to get my point across.

Range finding is very much the point of the discussion. I think we agree that we can focus on two objects side by side at the same range. I can assure you that when the normal benchmarks we use to estimate range are removed from our vision, all distant objects visible appear to be in a single focal plane. Only if we can be certain that the two objects are of similar size, can we then deduce that the one which appears smaller is actually farther away. This is why the post and front sight analogy works. The only way your argument can stand up is if you can be sure that the two objects are in fact at different ranges. Because the eye has such a long depth of field, we are pretty poor at estimating range - particularly when the common indexes we depend on are not there.

Once an object is in your far field focus it remains in focus, until you are distracted by an object in your close field focus, or in your peripheral vision, which I would define as what you see on the outside edge of your normal vision. This would most often be to your left or right, but it could also be above or below you, but it would not be off in the distance. You cannot focus on objects in your peripheral vision, you can only be aware of them, that is until you focus your attention onto them. Once you focus on these new objects which are now centered in your normal vision, the objects which you had focused on are now on the periphery of your vision, so you can only be aware of them but would be unable to focus on them.

When we look through our ghost ring rear sight, we are adjusting the width and breadth of our normal vision to a very narrow path. It would be very difficult to observe objects in our peripheral vision when looking at the front sight through an aperture. For this reason when the shot is being made on a live target it is preferable to keep both eyes open - but this is not possible for everyone. As long as we look through that aperture, the front sight will provide us with a sharp and precise index of where our bullet will strike our in focus target.

I should add at this juncture that I am not saying that I can see a distant object in as much detail as I can a closer one, I cannot. What I am saying however, is that when I see an object in the distance, that object does not become less distinct due to the presence of, or to my attention to, a front sight when viewed through an aperture rear sight.
 
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