what are your bullet performance variables at different ranges?

Mr. Friendly

Mr. Friendly

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so I'm trying to understand how to fact ballistic coefficient and sectional density with velocity against the different types of bullets out there.

I mostly shot for fun at the pistol range, ignoring rifles for much of the last decade. now I'm working at getting myself back into hunting and see I have a lot to learn.

from what I read, BC was made a lot of, but a comment by SuperCub shared that BC's important really only comes into play at longer ranges. that's not something I'll have to worry about with the .45-70. especially being most of the bullets don't have a very high BC. in fact, lots of bullets in very popular calibers don't seem to have much of a BC.

I appreciate all the comments, knowledge, wisdom and experience everyone has been sharing with my latest post whoring sessions. perhaps now someone can share the dynamics of the hunting bullets and what concerns or factors should be considered for small bore, medium bore and large bore bullets and such.
 
Its not really clear what you are asking for here. Its fairly broad and vague.

Are you looking to choose a bullet? Are you trying to determine if a fast LOW BC bullet will perform better than a slower, high BC bullet?

Are you trying to optimize the performance of a particular bullet?

As for small, vs medium, vs large bore bullets, the numbers and values might change, but the principles remain the same.

Shoot the highest BC bullet that your rifling twist can stabilize as fast as possible before accuracy/consistency suffers without penetrating the animal deeper than the bullet is designed for.

So to help us not overwhelm with a whole bunch of off topic info, can you ask a more specific question?
 
I want a trajectory that will allow me to shoot easily (within the maximum point blank range concept) to as far as I will attempt a shot, and almost always a "heavy for caliber" bullet of a construction that will not fragment at whatever velocity it will have through the whole of my acceptable range. Ballistic Coefficient is not as important to me as sectional density because I will not attempt a shot beyond about 400 yards (and my average is less than 100) so B.C. becomes irrelevant. I test loads to get the accuracy I demand for hunting. I don't hunt in rifle seasons with cartridges that limit my range to less than about 400 yds. I do hunt with muzzle loaders during that season, and I just accept the range limitations. Bullet choice for ML is still "heavy" for caliber.

Is that what you are asking?
 
I guess I'm asking for info on how to select bullets that will maintain the best terminal specifications over the distances the cartridge can be used for.

in this case, three cartridges:
.270 Win (22" barrel)
7mm-08 (28" barrel)
.45-70 (15" barrel)
 
Mr. Friendly said:
I guess I'm asking for info on how to select bullets that will maintain the best terminal specifications over the distances the cartridge can be used for.

in this case, three cartridges:
.270 Win (22" barrel)
7mm-08 (28" barrel)
.45-70 (15" barrel)
Click to expand...

OK, well that still leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

First, its probably easier if you treat this as three separate problems, as the solution to each cartridge may require a fairly different type of bullet.

Second, for each calibre, what do you want in terms of terminal specifications? All hunting bullets claim to penetrate deep, expand big, and retain weight. Hunters rarely shoot enough animals to scientifically determine the veracity of these claims, and anecdotally you seem to get 2/3, depending on the product line and manufacturer. But this begs the question, how deep? What are you planning to hunt with each of those cartridges?

Third, what are the twist rates in each of those barrels, and this will significantly effect what weight of bullet can be stabilized in each barrel.

Fourth, have you clocked any bullets in these guns? Knowing what previous bullets at a given weight have achieved in terms of velocity will help predict what the final velocity of any other bullet/weight might be.

Usually when choosing bullets and loads etc, you either approach the problem back to front (how to get the most out of the gun that I have) or front to back (what do I need to kill X animal under Y conditions).

Rarely would you try to pick a bullet without knowing a lot of information about what its going to get shot out of or what its going to get shot at.
 
It's pretty bad when you can tell from the title who started the thread... but I guess it is pretty close to 50/50 on that guess anyway.
 
Each bullet manufacture lists minimum impacts for reliable expansion. Tests the bullets in each rifle and determine when the bullet no longer meets the min impact velocity and stay within that range

Personally i use either a heavy for caliber controlled expansion bullet for breaking big bones and deep penetration with an exit hole being the goal or a fast expanding high velocity bullet designed to liquify the lungs

Either way i try to get as close to the animal as i can. I mainly hunt with archery and muzzleloaders so im used to getting close.
 
just goes to show how much I don't know. :(

seems I have a hard time articulating what I am trying to ask, which make for long winded jumbles of words.

so thanks for all the patience, everyone. :)

Cameron SS said:
OK, well that still leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

First, its probably easier if you treat this as three separate problems, as the solution to each cartridge may require a fairly different type of bullet.

Second, for each calibre, what do you want in terms of terminal specifications? All hunting bullets claim to penetrate deep, expand big, and retain weight. Hunters rarely shoot enough animals to scientifically determine the veracity of these claims, and anecdotally you seem to get 2/3, depending on the product line and manufacturer. But this begs the question, how deep? What are you planning to hunt with each of those cartridges?

Third, what are the twist rates in each of those barrels, and this will significantly effect what weight of bullet can be stabilized in each barrel.

Fourth, have you clocked any bullets in these guns? Knowing what previous bullets at a given weight have achieved in terms of velocity will help predict what the final velocity of any other bullet/weight might be.

Usually when choosing bullets and loads etc, you either approach the problem back to front (how to get the most out of the gun that I have) or front to back (what do I need to kill X animal under Y conditions).

Rarely would you try to pick a bullet without knowing a lot of information about what its going to get shot out of or what its going to get shot at.
Click to expand...
 
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hoytcanon said:
It's pretty bad when you can tell from the title who started the thread... but I guess it is pretty close to 50/50 on that guess anyway.
Click to expand...

Huh, common ground. Whodda thunk....


SD seems to be making a resurgence on the internet these days for some reason. Sectional Density was relevant 80(?) years ago when bullet construction was largely the same regardless of caliber and metallurgy. Now, SD is pretty much meaningless with the advent of controlled expansion bullets.

Ballistic Coefficient however, does have merit in that it is a measure of retained velocity and wind deflection.

For the OP's considerations though, BC will be pretty much a moot point. SuperCub is kinda correct in that BC is a bigger consideration at longer range (likely (hopefully) outside of the OP's intentions for on-game performance in that he isn't likely to be shooting at game at moderate to extended ranges....) HOWEVER, BC is an important consideration when it comes to wind. Which (hopefully) is also outside of the OP's intentions when it comes to on-game performance.

That said, to the OP, pick any 130 gr bullet like an accubond/partition/interbond/tsx/etc for your .270, any 140 gr bullet like a ttsx/partition/accubond/interbond/etc etc etc for your 7/08, and any bullet you want for your 45/70 that is accurate and go forth and shoot game.

Don't make more of this than is required. Until you get proficient out past 300 yards anything will pretty much work for your application. Pick any good game bullet and use that. Don't get into the specialized stuff until you have the basics down.
 
If you take the collective knowledge of the more experienced loaders and hunters the most common answer would be just load up some Partitions and have at it. I don't think it will get more simple then that.
 
Mr. Friendly said:
indeed...perhaps I was letting my mind go off into crazy tangents. KISS is often best. :)
Click to expand...

Reloading is mostly a rabbit hole for people prone to over thinking problems.

As long as you use quality components, using a reliable load development process to make the most accurate round you can with those components, based on the most consistent bench technique you can manage, will always produce a round that is good enough for harvesting meat.

Great hunters aren't great because they can make impossible shots with expensive equipment. They are great because they don't have to.
 
X3 Partitions. I have shot many animals with Partitions, starting in 1966 or so.
Shots have ranged from 15 yards up to 525. They have always got the
job done. Sure, a better BC makes shots beyond 400 yards a bit easier,
but in today's market with Ranging reticules and/or Calibrated elevation
turrets, it becomes a moot point. Dave.
 
x4 for Partitions. They are the bullet against which all others are compared. They are not new, but the do the same thing every time, and are my hunting bullet of choice (except for specific exceptions) for the last 38 years.
 
Mr. Friendly said:
what about Accubonds?
Click to expand...

I'm currently conducting experiments with Accubonds in test media and on game. Not really enough evidence yet but they seem to be performing very well in both accuracy and expansion in my tests and on game. I'm still comparing them to my experiences with Partitions, of course. So far, I like them, and will continue to try to gather data in various ways. They DO seem to shoot very well, which is always a plus, but Partitions have shot well too.

I just can't seem to get enough moose tags to satisfy my curiosity. :rolleyes:
 
If you can find them, companies like Hornady and Nosler have PRINT catalogs where they show the bullets at varying impact velocities. That is, I assume, the question you are asking.

What happens when bullet A hits target B at distance C?

It boils down to impact velocity AT TARGET. Quickly you will see that ALL hunting bullets go through the same expansion process.. they just do it at varying velocities.

Figure out how you will use each rifle and the operating velocities that bullet will meet fur... then choose a bullet that will expand and penetrate the way you want, over your operating impact velocities, on the type of game you are hunting.

That's really it.... you will find the "class" of bullet to suit... then you test to see which your rifle likes and go hunt.

Jerry
 
Mr. Friendly said:
I guess I'm asking for info on how to select bullets that will maintain the best terminal specifications over the distances the cartridge can be used for.

in this case, three cartridges:
.270 Win (22" barrel)
7mm-08 (28" barrel)
.45-70 (15" barrel)
Click to expand...

Bullets should be chosen with consideration to muzzle velocity, range and impact velocity, and to target density. In the cases above, the .270 appears to be set up for general big game hunting, so I can't think of a better bullet than a Partition, say 130 gr for sheep, deer, antelope, wolves, and goats and 160 gr for elk, moose and bear. Some may prefer to simplify the problem and use a 150 gr Partition for everything. Accubonds are a viable alternative.

The 7mm-08 with a 28" barrel has a couple of possibilities. If its a target rifle for long range shooting, the bullet may need to perform at low impact velocities. This can be a fairly specialized field, where match bullets are annealed to ensure low velocity terminal performance. From that perspective, and taking the 7-08's powder capacity into account, my vote would be for a Berger 168 VLD Hunting. If the rifle is intended to duplicate the design and performance of the prewar commercial Mausers, then the correct bullet is any round nose cup and core 175 gr bullet loaded to about 2400 fps.

The .45/70 due to its short barrel, I believe should use the heaviest bullet that is available for it, which is something like a 550 gr WFN gas checked cast bullet, with a crimping groove near the front of the bullet, rather than down on the shank typical for .458 Winchester bullets. This bullet weight uses significantly less powder than lighter bullets, due to its weight, and seating depth, which pays dividends when fired in short barrels. Recoil is in the dreadful range, considering the stock design of many .45/70 rifles, particularly if your fingers are inside the loop of a lever gun, or if you knuckles collide with a trigger guard, but the terminal performance of a heavy .458 WFN at 1600 defines short range performance.
 
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