what benefits would a magnum primer have for a standard case?

[purple]

Rem 7 1/2 primers have been my standard in 5.56/.223 handloads for decades. Now I've never shot gophers in December, but its re-assuring to know that they would be hot for the job then too. I mostly use stick powders for my hunting loads, but I do have a ball powder load for my pet .308 that always uses magnum primers. I used to hunt deer in AB,SK and MB in some pretty chilly temps and it always worked well.

 

[titch--]

I used magnums in all my loads just because I wasnt to sure how it effected the powder, since I shoot in +30 right down to -35.

 

[SuperCub]

Is there any reason not to use a magnum primer in a smaller 308 sized case with med burning powder?

I was shooting some loads on sat with my 358Win loaded with 250gr Speers and BL-C(2). Wanted to see if switching primers would make a difference so I loaded some WLR, CCI 200s, Fed 215s and WLRMs. The first three produced 3 shot one inch groups or a tad less. The WLRMs put them into a large hole. I will be trying them again.

 

[BigUglyMan]

H4831

1. No offence but I will go with the long and elaborate tests conducted by our military and the primers our military uses.

2. I'm answering the OP question and NONE of what you posted has anything to do with the military's decision to use magnum primers.

3. This is the internet and everyone has their own opinion BUT a single brief test conducted by someone without the same lab equipment and test facilities the U.S. Military used in testing doesn't carry any weight in my book.

The comments made above are not meant to be insulting to you H4831 and you have made your comments about primers made known many times. But you and boomer didn't make the decision our American military did after years of exhaustive testing and using magnum primers.

If you don't like answers given here then you should think about a new hobby................one mans opinion means nothing. And your opinion isn't going to change the fact the military uses magnum primers.

Below is what CCI has to say about the military primers used at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant U.S.A.

•Mil-spec sensitivity
•Initiator mix optimized for ball/spherical propellants
•Available in large (No.34) and small (No. 41) rifle
•Use the same data as CCI Magnum primers

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

So therefore H4831 we will agree to disagree and I'm going with the U.S. Military.

With all due respect to the American Military Complex, when it comes to cold weather and the test conducted by Boomer, I'll take the test results of Boomer. They are empirical and based on our Canadian climate. Nothing in the OP's post was asking what your American military uses. He wanted to know if he could/should used magnum primers with his supply of 4350. Mike and Bruce have demonstrated that it will likely be of no benefit. I have always used magnum primers in loads destined to be used in cold climates. I realize that hunting at -40 degrees is likely a completely foreign concept to you, but it happens up here and for some of us it is more common than fair weather hunting. For that reason Mike's test is extremely valuable to get hunting community in many areas of Canada.

Bottom line OP, magnum primers likely will not hurt and, if they make you feel better then that's good enough.

 

[bigedp51]

With all due respect to the American Military Complex, when it comes to cold weather and the test conducted by Boomer, I'll take the test results of Boomer. They are empirical and based on our Canadian climate. Nothing in the OP's post was asking what your American military uses. He wanted to know if he could/should used magnum primers with his supply of 4350. Mike and Bruce have demonstrated that it will likely be of no benefit. I have always used magnum primers in loads destined to be used in cold climates. I realize that hunting at -40 degrees is likely a completely foreign concept to you, but it happens up here and for some of us it is more common than fair weather hunting. For that reason Mike's test is extremely valuable to get hunting community in many areas of Canada.

Bottom line OP, magnum primers likely will not hurt and, if they make you feel better then that's good enough.

You may have heard of the American state of Alaska that borders your Yukon territory and where our military does its cold weather testing. And our military ammunition from the 5.56 to the 50 BMG are loaded with magnum primers. And the kicker is magnum primers should be used at temperatures below 20° F with any type powder.

 

[Dogleg]

Boomer does a quick test and concludes that he isn't going to quit using magnum primers in cold weather any time soon. Since he's never mentioned summer and winter loads I'll take that to mean year round.

BUM concludes that it can't hurt and might help and uses magnum primers.

BigEd looks at test data and uses magnum primers.

Maybe its just me, but I think that you're all singin' out of the same book. A duel may not be necessary.

Since Mike's numbers are up anyway, lets take a look. I know that its only 5 shots of each but it is what it is.

First off, the .270. With the wild swings in velocity it would seem something is wrong. Without doing that part over again about the only conclusion I'd make is that my .270 WSM , .270 Weatherby and 7mm STWs don't have anything to worry about. Movin on;

30-30. Has anyone in the history of 30-30s ever thought that the little case of stick powder was hard to light? Movin on;

30-06. 60 grains of a ballish powder sort of meets the criteria that is commonly used to decide the cut-off. It is a ball powder and is on the edge charge wise. Weather is cold. Sure enough, ES is cut in half. Movin' on;

.375 RUM; Now we've got the big charge, cold weather and the ball powder. ES is cut to a fifth. Finally;

.458. Big charge, cold weather and ball powder. The numbers come up close enough that it might be a tie. Conclusion? Maybe it doesn't matter on that one, maybe if you did again they would trade places. I know that I can get single digit spreads out of a .458 without even trying with stick powders and 215s. Not that it matters on a elephant gun.

Me? I'll keep on using magnum primers in magnums, magnums or any Winchester primer with ball powders, and avoid ball powders in cold weather straight across the board.

 

[amosfella]

This is the question stuck in my head.... Did Boomer leave the ammo outside to get good and cold for a few hours before shooting it?? I believe that it's the most relevant question.

Now, as a side note, in Pet Loads, Waters recommends using a magnum primer in every load over 25 cal that I have looked at... If I remember right, and I'd have to dig the book out of the pile and look, he recommended Remington 9.5s.

 

[bigedp51]

30-30. Has anyone in the history of 30-30s ever thought that the little case of stick powder was hard to light? Movin on;

Did you ever shoot a 30-30 Contender pistol with a 14 inch barrel?

I have a Winchester 30-30 Trapper Model with a 16 inch barrel, it is loaded with Winchester 748 ball powder and uses a magnum primer. If you use a standard primer you have unburned grains of powder left in the barrel and if your shooting from the bench with snow on the ground the snow looks like its sprinkled with pepper.

The best thing about reloading is the person pulling the presses handle and pulling the trigger is the one responsible for the quality of his reloads.

I do not live in Alaska or Canada but I do test my rifles under the conditions I will be using them. And I can tell you that it was below Zero the day I was shooting below and condensation was forming and freezing in the chamber and on the cartridges. You could hear the crunching noise as the bolt was closed and my hand warmer was getting a workout.

I was shaking so bad at times I was afraid I would shoot over the berm and the bullets would end up in Canada. Then you Canadians would retaliate and burn Washington again.

So don't get cocky Dogleg our American spy satellites have picked up Canadian movement in a attempt to encircle Washing again and your using your Tim Horton restaurants as a cover.

Below, Tim Horton restaurants in the U.S.

My Last name is Horton and some of my ancestors stayed loyal to the King and moved to Canada. Our side of the Horton clan preferred playing Base Ball when it was warm out and hated playing Hockey in freezing weather. But we still test out our reloads in the cold.

P.S. And Yuengling Beer is the best beer in North America.

 

[Dogleg]

All the more reason to just skip the ball powders in cold weather. I get sick of tilting the barrel to pour out unburnt powder.I don't have a 30-30 contender but do have one in 7TCU.

I see the TH diversion tactic is working as planned. Stage 1 is complete. Stronger beer should take care of the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4om1N7kKQ

 

[bigedp51]

All the more reason to just skip the ball powders in cold weather. I get sick of tilting the barrel to pour out unburnt powder.I don't have a 30-30 contender but do have one in 7TCU.

I see the TH diversion tactic is working as planned. Stage 1 is complete.

And my older Lyman and Speer reloading manuals show using a magnum primer with ball powder in the 30-30.

And in this same 30-30 rifle I had IMR-3031 with unburned powder in the chamber and bore with a standard primer.

And "SOME" of you failed to read the links and material I posted.

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/am...motaip_200909/

"We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays."

So "again" temperature effects "HOW" powder burns and it is even more important at lower pressures like the 30-30 at 38,000 CUP or 43,000 PSI chamber pressure. And the military is using magnum primers in the diminutive .223/5.56 case loaded with 28.5 grains of ball powder. And some of you here want to argue with "WHY" the military uses magnum primers.

Which leads us to the question, why did the Military use a hotter spark plug?

And why does Remington call the 7 1/2 primer a Benchrest primer.

THE DOORS LYRICS
"Light My Fire"
You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar
If I was to say to you
Girl, we couldn't get much higher

Come on baby, light my fire
Come on baby, light my fire
Try to set the night on fire

 

[purple]

MILSPEC ammo is tested and made to go "bang" in a variety of conditions ranging from hot sodden jungles to deserts to arctic conditions, and it does just that. About the only cold weather failure I ever experienced was with a bunch of M49 trip flares. They were well cold soaked having been out in minus 40 temps for some time. A lot of them failed.

 

[bigedp51]

I have 3 cans of imr 4350 I kind of forgot about. Also, found an older nosler manual I forgot I had. It lists a decently fast load with imr4350 and 50 grainers in a .220 swift. Would magnum primers be of any benefit to help speed or efficiency? A different thread this morning got me thinking. Thanks, Rob.

In my oldest Lyman manual 45 edition 1970 lists a Remington 9 1/2 primer used with a 50 grain Sierra spritzer and IMR-4350 powder.
Start load 39.0 grains, max 43.0 and a compressed load.

In my Speer No.9 manual dated 1974 a standard CCI 200 primer is used with a 50 grain Speer bullet and IMR-4350 powder.
Start load 40.0 grains and max 44.0.

Now all you need to decide is what temp you are going to be shooting at and if you are going to be shooting Polar bears at below zero temps.

If you are going after Polar bears I would use a much bigger caliber and magnum primers.

Did you know the Polar bear is the meanest bear in the world?

If your balls were in ice water all day long you would be a mean SOB too.

 

[RL-300mag]

In my oldest Lyman manual 45 edition 1970 lists a Remington 9 1/2 primer used with a 50 grain Sierra spritzer and IMR-4350 powder.
Start load 39.0 grains, max 43.0 and a compressed load.

In my Speer No.9 manual dated 1974 a standard CCI 200 primer is used with a 50 grain Speer bullet and IMR-4350 powder.
Start load 40.0 grains and max 44.0.

Now all you need to decide is what temp you are going to be shooting at and if you are going to be shooting Polar bears at below zero temps.

If you are going after Polar bears I would use a much bigger caliber and magnum primers.

Did you know the Polar bear is the meanest bear in the world?

If your balls were in ice water all day long you would be a mean SOB too.

LOL...that's the stuff Ed.....

 

[bigedp51]

LOL...that's the stuff Ed.....

I don't understand all this controversy over primers, here in "Pennsyltucky" when the milk cows get constipated we mix raw linseed oil and Remington 7 1/2 primers with the feed.

Don't tell H4831 but this is really some hot $hit and smells real bad in the hot summer months. (and the flame is much smaller in the winter)

 

[cath8r]

Lol... just coyotes and I tap out when it gets -15.

 

[SND]

From my testing large magnum primers only cause issues in a regular/smallish case with regular powders. No velocity gain, but appears to cause a pressure spike that will easily ruin primer pockets with 1 firing even with very minimal loads. Most testing was with 308, a bit with 260rem. Same results. IF regular cci-200s or similar had any issues getting the job done under very cold temps and/or hard to ignite powders is where I'd try them again in regular/smallish cases. I put all my magnum ones aside for when I'll have my 300wm done. As always you can carefully try a few and figure for your self if its working for your needs/application or not. Wear your safety glasses...

Only magnum primers I currently use are the small CCI450's in 308palma brass, they seem to work ok there and its hard to wreck pockets in that brass.
In winter I stay home, very rare I'd go to the range under +5 temp now.

 

[jethunter]

There is more to consider than just how much or what type of powder is being ignited. Pressure is part of the equation as well and I have found magnum primers are actually quite useful in lower pressure and cast bullet loads.

Most (all) powders burn more efficiently at higher pressure to some extent, and some remarkably so. Reduced or starting level loads will quite often have a lower velocity spread using hotter primers. Powder in maximum or "hotter" loads burns more intensely because of the elevated pressure and therefore tends to be more uniform , which might negate the need for mag primers altogether in some powders and conditions.

Years ago I chronied some 30-06 loads (180 gr bullet/H4831) in -20F weather. Took the ten first shots and then we went back to the clubhouse to work on buddy's rifle which needed some adjusting. The ammo stayed outside. Two hours later, the ammo averaged 150 fps slower on the next 10 shots.

Same load, same conditions, same rifle, same pair of lucky underwear. What happened? Well, there is more gpoing on here than just the temperature drop. This is a fairly low pressure load - the 30-06 case just doesn't have sufficient powder capacity to do well with H4831 except when the case is crammed full and even then it's still only a 45-50K load. That is low-ish pressure when using a slower and harder-to-ignite powder, and because it was already a borderline load the low temperature was enough to affect the burn characteristics sufficiently to drop velocity by 150 fps. A hotter load might not have been affected as much or maybe not at all. I wasn't using mag primers and I can't say if using them would have made any difference. But I can definitely say this load was affected by temperature.

People test ammo in cold weather, but not all of them think to let the ammo sit outside for a few hours prior to shooting. Ammo that came from your house or car 10-15 minutes previously isn't actually cooled off yet.

Using mag primers in 34-35K psi 9.3x57 loads with IMR4895 reduced extreme velocity spread from 200 fps to 30 fps. Using mag primers in 45-70 loads with IMR4198 reduced velocity spread from 240 fps to 60 fps. That's where I find magnum primers to be most useful. In higher pressure loads in these same cartridges there is little if any difference between mag and regular primers.

 

[kamlooky]

Me Lawrd..............they'zse fewd'in..................

I use mag primers in the old 308NM.
The rest, LRP's.

Now the SuperFuddCubb has me thinking........... need to try that out on my .358win.

Do you think the BLR is up to the e###xxtra spark....?........

 

[jethunter]

Likely you could use some extra spark, Looky.

 

[Andy]

I've seen those pics recycled quite a few times across the web, and they seem to be more than enough proof for just about everyone who sees them, but sometimes a picture is not worth a thousand words. The pics don't capture the duration or temperature of the flame, nor the actual effect on pressure or "reliability" of the ignition with various powders. If that data can be paired with the pics, then that would be interesting. Has it been?

The technicians at Remington when developing the 7 1/2 primer were listening to the Doors song "Light My Fire".

And the 7 1/2 primer isn't labeled a magnum primer.

Now guess which primer I use in my AR15 with ball powders.