What did I buy? Pocket Rocket 8mm Lebel

gunzik

gunzik

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Hello kind antique firearms experts!

This one is still in the USA, and on sober second thought I decided I'd better get my ducks in a row before having it shipped. While the seller is shipping it with their own "letter of antiquity" and holds forth that it's pre-1898, they really don't know that much about this revolver either.

I've tried the stupid search engines with no luck.

I bought a "Dozin", swing out cylinder, 5 shot 8mm lebel revolver. It's about the same size as the S&W pocket J frames (Model 36 etc.) and is in pretty decent shape. The hammer is very hard to #### in single action as it's primarily designed as a pocket double action revolver for the dapper French officer who left his 1892 Service Revolver at the barracks while on a stroll through whatever colony back in the 1890s.

FRT would be greatly appreciated, if someone knows it. Else, your wisdom, as always, is cherished! Enough talk, here are a couple of the seller's hijacked pictures:

1zyty77.jpg


14t4ojp.jpg


To open the cylinder you apparently pull on the ejector rod, which is spring loaded in both directions. It ejects all 5 rounds -- yes, 5 shot, pocket-sized, and I'm told, antique.

And just so I'm not wasting your time, how about 100 rounds of new Fiocchi 8mm Lebel Revolver Brass to the Nut who can supply me with a copy of the FRT for this one!
 
Have been checking on the CFC website FRT. The closest thing I can come up with so far is......

Francotte solid top frame double action revolver. 5 shots 70mm bbl. FRT # 130492-1. Can you get better pics? Would be easier if I could see some of the markings and get a measurement of the barrel.

The pics on the FRT are a little different.

If it turns out to be this one, its a prohib.
 
The FRT version I have doesn't have a pic for it, but sounds like it could be a F. Dumoulin & Co. "Double Action" (FRT # 90656-1). It lists it as a 5 shot with a partially shrouded, rebounding hammer. Does it have FDC marked on it anywhere?
 
Kanuck.......

You may be right. The frt I have does not have pics for this either. But the description is the same. This one is not prohib as long as it was manufactured before 1898.
 
More markings! Seller is cooperating a bit better today.

Top Strap:
Manufacture Francaise D'Armes
& Cycles de Saint-Etienne

Top of Barrel:
Le Formidable

Side of barrel (hard to see)
Crown over R
Star over interlaced A and H (the H shares the right leg of the A)

A very complex little marking on the ejector side of the cylinder that is 8 sided
M and F opposite
An arrow transects M and F
Two human stick figures? opposed by two bullets?
Small and hard to photograph or make out even with magnification.

Under the grips:

JH
BH
HM

Opposite side, under grips:
Dozin Brevette

Hey, it's a grumpy old guy with bad glasses. I can relate.

Only serial number is on the grips themselves, 4 digit starting with 3### and the grips appear to be hand checkered, perhaps ebony.

So it would appear to be a "Dozin" "Le Formidable"

The Saint-Etienne top strap marking and 8mm Lebel Revolver caliber certainly suggest French manufacture... Caliber is confirmed, the seller has some 8mm rounds he stuffed in successfully.

Thanks, Gents! I'm off to pick up a nice shipping box for the brass, I'm sure somebody will come up the the FRT for this one now.
 
RDY Bros: that's where the seller got it, I just asked. He was quite amazed! So am I!

Wow, the expertise here is awesome.
 
gunzik said:
Top Strap:
Manufacture Francaise D'Armes
& Cycles de Saint-Etienne

Top of Barrel:
Le Formidable

Side of barrel (hard to see)
Crown over R
Star over interlaced A and H (the H shares the right leg of the A)

A very complex little marking on the ejector side of the cylinder that is 8 sided
M and F opposite
An arrow transects M and F
Two human stick figures? opposed by two bullets?
Small and hard to photograph or make out even with magnification.

Under the grips:

JH
BH
HM

Opposite side, under grips:
Dozin Brevette

Hey, it's a grumpy old guy with bad glasses. I can relate.

Only serial number is on the grips themselves, 4 digit starting with 3### and the grips appear to be hand checkered, perhaps ebony.

So it would appear to be a "Dozin" "Le Formidable"

.
Click to expand...


The Dozin Brevette means that it was made using Dozin's patent. The manufacturer is not Dozin but rather the French Arms and Cycle works on the top strap.

The crown over R can mean reproofed and the stick figures you mention are a final proof stamp used on guns submitted ready for use.

I think the difficulty you face is proving that the gun was made before 1898 based on proof marks. You might reasonably argue that the crown over R indicates that the gun has been reproved with post 1898 proof marks. I am suspicious that the star over AH refers to the proof charge but am only guessing. French arms and cycles became Manufrance but I think that was much too late to be of any use. (ie guns continued to be labelled french arms etc until well past 1898)

cheers mooncoon
 
Thanks, Mooncoon!

I have the original seller's letter of antique status (RDY Antiques) or an emailed / scanned copy anyway, and the original is with the gun. It would of course be vastly preferable to know that this revolver is in the FRT somewhere as an antique.

The Various initials on the right grip might help place the revolver in time, if there is a record of those at the factory (similar to the lovely Belgian page above).

I will continue to offer 100 new 8mm Lebel Revolver rounds to anyone who can conclusively provide either the FRT saying antique or prohibited (prohibited would at least let me get my money back from the seller) and otherwise, documentary proof from somewhere that I can submit along with the original seller's letter to secure the antique letter...

Thanks, guys!
 
Unless I am mistaken, a letter from an antique dealer using paper with his/her letterhead, is acceptable to Canada Customs under the Customs act or customs regulations. as proof of age. The Customs Act or regulations are different from the criminal code and in the case of firearms may no longer apply relative to dating a firearm.

The FRT online information may not necessarily list the status of an antique, particularly if it potentially spans the 1898 cutoff.

cheers mooncoon
 
I looked for info on this manufacturer and never did get anything definitive as far as dates of manufacture. Hopefully yo have better luck.
 
gunzik said:
Thanks, Mooncoon!

I have the original seller's letter of antique status (RDY Antiques) or an emailed / scanned copy anyway, and the original is with the gun. It would of course be vastly preferable to know that this revolver is in the FRT somewhere as an antique.

The Various initials on the right grip might help place the revolver in time, if there is a record of those at the factory (similar to the lovely Belgian page above).

I will continue to offer 100 new 8mm Lebel Revolver rounds to anyone who can conclusively provide either the FRT saying antique or prohibited (prohibited would at least let me get my money back from the seller) and otherwise, documentary proof from somewhere that I can submit along with the original seller's letter to secure the antique letter...

Thanks, guys!
Click to expand...

Theres alot of antique guns that are Antique but listed as Prohibs or restricted in the FRT System.
No i dont have the disc but i know theres lots of guns that are perscribed antiques listed as not being so.
I know because i have gotten letters on them ever tho its shows them as all restricted ect.

So all im saying is you cant go by the FRT if it says Prohibed it could still be antique it could well be prohib to.
Theres lots of guns in that ALFA 1911 cataloge that are also antique.
My guess is its not pre 1898 but if Dave says it is or Richard then they must have some idea tho ive seen guns they sell as antique that were not at least in Canada.
Best to do research before you buy the guns.
 
I know for a fact that they were still using the "arms and cycles" manufacturing name on commercial handguns at the time of the Great War, which is when they built my little "Le Municipal". Rifles were marked only as "St. Etienne" and they sure built a pile of those!

Interestingly enough, they sent me a catalogue page describing this gun as a "Model of 1892 of civil manufacture".

Mine was carried in combat by a Major in the French Army in the Great War. He gave it to a local farmer in 1933, along with a handful of rounds. Sadly, this irreplaceable piece of history is destined for the smelter..... unless we all talk nicely to Mr. Harper and get him to reverse a little more of this Left Fascist firearms law. Good thing is that he seems to be on our side right now: definitely more than we can say for the LibDips.

Hope you can get this worked out favourably. Every single victory over the confusing mess which exists today brings us one tiny step closer to sanity.
..........................................................................................

BTW, who has brass for these?

Thanks.
.
 
I have a large pile of brass for these. Starpuss here on CGN has brass for these that he may be willing to sell, I'm offering 100 new brass for definitive proof, either way, antique or not.

Smellie: If you have a catalog page you could scan and email that calls it the model of 1892 of Civil Manufacture, I have found the crown R proofs (randomly used in France and Belgium) on several antique revolvers of Belgian manufacture. With the RDY Antiques letter and your catalog page, I'd be confident enough to approach CFC for the Antique Letter that my new seller wants to ship the thing here...

And, for your catalog page, which appears to be the closest I'll get to proof of antiquity, you can have 100 rounds of my nice shiny new brass. Just send me your physical shipping address, PM for my email please!
 
From what I can find in the FRT I think it is a Bogatyr type Dumoulin double action hand eject revolver made in Belgium. FRT # 90656-1 if it was manufactured before 1889(antique). 90656-2 if it was manufactured after 1889(prohib). Hope this info is useful. Dont worry about the brass I do not own any 8mm lebel revolvers. Just happy I could help. (technically verifiers are not allowed to charge for their services)
 
Enfield303 said:
From what I can find in the FRT I think it is a Bogatyr type Dumoulin double action hand eject revolver made in Belgium. FRT # 90656-1 if it was manufactured before 1889(antique). 90656-2 if it was manufactured after 1889(prohib). Hope this info is useful. Dont worry about the brass I do not own any 8mm lebel revolvers. Just happy I could help. (technically verifiers are not allowed to charge for their services)
Click to expand...

Sounds well-done !...:)
 
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