What Did I Do? Rounded Shoulder

Sapper33

Sapper33

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Went to the range today to try out my new R25, brought some surplus stuff and my first handloads to try in it. Surplus stuff (Norc) all fired fine.

All brass is FL-sized Remington, trimmed to 2.006", then camfered and deburred.

My first load to be tried was:
43.0gr Varget
150gr Speer SPBT
Win Mag Lg Rifle primer
COL: 2.690"

Rounds 1 and 2 went fine.

Round 3 did not want to seat fully, it took some a bit of coaxing with the forward assist(AR) to get the bolt to fully close, after firing it ejected just fine.

Round 4 would not seat, and left the bolt open probably 3/8". I decided that was to much, so heaved back and ejected it (took a bit of force). It was noticed that there were marks on the shoulder, and that the shoulder was rounded. There were no noticeable marks on the round or on the case neck.

Round 5 wasn't fired as I figure this needs to be sorted out first.

The following show the case of Round 3(fired), Round 4(rounded) and Round 5(as loaded):
Dammit2-small.JPG


I took it to Russell Sports in Calgary on the way home, and it was suggested that even though it was FL-sized it may be a tight enough chamber that cases fired in another rifle still won't work.

I really don't like that idea, it means I've got 800 cases that may or may not work...that's too much brass to throw out on a "might be".

HELP!!! PLEASE!!!
 
I was hoping it was an issue with the dies.

I've tried to follow the set-up directions. Put the ram to the top of the stroke, screw down the die till it touches. Then lower the ram, and give the dies another 1/8 - 1/4 turn to take out any play.

I can see the shell holder touch the bottem of the die at the very top of the stroke, not early enough to not allow it to cam over, but enough that at the top of the stroke there is no play.

I do have the decap pin sticking 0.1785" (~11/64) vs the 3/16 (0.1875) RCBS says. Would this couse any ill effects?
 
The bottom of the die should just kiss the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Your dies are down too far. Take out the 1/8 - 1/4 turn.
 
You don't want to crimp them, so set the die up as much as 1/8 of an inch, or more, to be sure the narrowing crimp doesn't hit.
All standard dies designed to crimp like this do the same thing.
 
H4831 said:
You don't want to crimp them, so set the die up as much as 1/8 of an inch, or more, to be sure the narrowing crimp doesn't hit.
All standard dies designed to crimp like this do the same thing.
Click to expand...

Not to hijack this thread (I agree dies are setup wrong)

But in a Semi-auto I was under the impression that you would want to crimp ?
 
msg.drew said:
What brand dies are you using I bet there hornady?
Click to expand...
RCBS, why?

I adjusted my FL-die, I've got it set now so that there is just the slightest bit of resistance at the top of the stroke. It's adjusted "loose" enough that the weight of the arm will push the ram to the top of the stroke, but tight enough that I cannot slide a piece of paper between the shell holder and the die. I also cannot slide a piece of paper out when I place one between the holder and die.

Should I adjust my decapper pin slightly further down, as it is a bit shallower than what RCBS recommends.
 
Set your sizing die all the way down and the seating die 1/8 or more off the shell holder, you are bulging the shoulder because the seating die is crimping way to heavy. If you don't want to crimp just back the die off. If you want a crimp first trim all your cases to the same lenght. To set your crimp back off the seater stem once your bullet is where you want it, move the die body down till you get the crimp you want, then move the seating stem down till the seater contacts the bullet and lock everything in place. You need to crimp for heavy recoil rifles and some semi autos or the bullet will move under recoil or when the bolt slams forward on a semi. Everyone I shot with crimps for the AR.
 
Its not the sizing die that is causing the problem, it is the seater. The crimping operation is pushing down on the end of the neck, and causing the shoulder to get bulged out. You can see the slight distortion of the shoulder in the photos.
Back off the seating stem. Put a sized case in the shellholder and raise the ram. Screw the seating die down until it just makes contact with the case. Lower the ram, put a bullet in place. Raise the ram. Screw the seating stem in until it touches the bullet. Lower the ram, screw in the stem in a bit, seat the bullet a bit. Repeat until the crimping groove on the bullet is just into the neck. Back off the seating stem. Screw the die slightly deeper into the press, and apply a bit of crimp. Adjust until the crimp is what you want. Do not buckle the shoulder. Once you are satisfied with the crimp, lock the die body, and screw the seating stem in, until it just makes contact with the bullet. You are away to the races. Keep in mind that for this method of crimping to give uniform results, your cases have to be trimmed to the same length. Long ones are going to be overcrimped, and the shoulders perhaps buckled. A Lee factory crimp die uses a collet, and case length is not critical.
 
spooksar said:
Set your sizing die all the way down and the seating die 1/8 or more off the shell holder, you are bulging the shoulder because the seating die is crimping way to heavy. If you don't want to crimp just back the die off. If you want a crimp first trim all your cases to the same lenght. To set your crimp back off the seater stem once your bullet is where you want it, move the die body down till you get the crimp you want, then move the seating stem down till the seater contacts the bullet and lock everything in place. You need to crimp for heavy recoil rifles and some semi autos or the bullet will move under recoil or when the bolt slams forward on a semi. Everyone I shot with crimps for the AR.
Click to expand...

Thats what I thought...

I dont think the bullets Sapper is using have a cannelure either, so that might cause problems as well..
 
I have confirmed it is the crimp (I was waiting for the gun to "defrost")

So that no one freaks out, the following was preformed with the UPPER only, no bolt, no lower, no cocking handle:

I droped a factory round in: it slide right in, up to the base. => benchmark

I droped in one of my loaded rounds: it slid in, but stuck out ~1/4" further than the factory round

I droped in a FL-sized/trimmed case: slide in up to the base

Moral of the story, I'm going to stop trying to crimp bullets that don't have the cannelure for a crimp. I guess I'll stick to reloading FMJ until I can find decent soft/hollowpoints that are crimpable.

...I hope the rounds I've already loaded will fit my M14...
 
If you want to crimp a bullet that does not have a cannelure--use the Lee factory Crimp die. Likely won't help the accuracy but should prevent any set-back of the bullet. Not likely a good thing to do if you are loading match bullets at some point. For those, you have to make sure that the neck is resized small enough to hold the bullets firmly,

Does your rifle feed the rounds without damaging the soft-points on the bullets? If it does then there will likely not be any real need to crimp.

44Bore
 
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