What did military do for copper/jacket fouling removal?
- Thread starter y2k
- Start date
Jacket fouling
In the British/Commonwealth forces, that was what the long loop in your Pull-through was for. That, and a bit of soft-iron Screening, and you had a very effective remover for Jacket Fouling which worked very well with the Cupro-Nickel jackets of the Cartridges, SA, .303" Cordite Marks I through VII, including all of the various and sundry Specials. It worked even better after Gilding-metal jackets came into use.
The Americans used AMMONIA DOPE and elbow-grease. The elbow-grease worked fine but sometimes the Ammonia Dope would go hog-wild and eat a barrel.
There ARE modern bore cleaners based on a highly-modified Ammonia Dope. One such is "Sweet's Seven-Six-Two", which is sometimes hard to get, generally expensive and ALWAYS works well.
Hope this helps.
.
The Americans used AMMONIA DOPE and elbow-grease. The elbow-grease worked fine but sometimes the Ammonia Dope would go hog-wild and eat a barrel.
There ARE modern bore cleaners based on a highly-modified Ammonia Dope. One such is "Sweet's Seven-Six-Two", which is sometimes hard to get, generally expensive and ALWAYS works well.
Hope this helps.
.
With Cupro-nickel jackets (usually Cu 85/Ni 15), velocity is the determining factor. CuNi jackets on the .303" had an MV of 2380 - 2440 ft/sec and from the .30 M1906 an MV of 2700 - 2800 ft/sec. That extra 350 - 400 feet per second made a great deal of difference in the cleaning, the American barrels needing to be de-nickeled every time they were shot. In British Service, barrels were de-nickled as a part of the regular daily cleaning process AS REQUIRED, which was determined by "snagging" or uneven pull on a regular 4x2 cleaning patch. If the barrel "snagged" your Patch, you de-nickeled it immediately, using the wire-screen method as detailed in "Rifle - 1942" (downloadable across the way at milsurps dot com).
At velocities 2000 ft/sec and below, nickel-fouling seems not to have been much of a factor at all. It was very much a limiting factor on velocities for a long time.
The Austrians, Bulgarians and Greeks beat the nickel-fouling problem completely by using LUBRICATED STEEL jackets in their ammunition. This was thin sheet-steel which had the surface micro-stippled and then grease rolled deep into the steel as the final step toward making up the lengths of material which would become bullet jackets. Blanks then were punched from this stripping, the jackets drawn and the bullets made. France beat the same problem with their Balle D solid-bronze (actually a type of brass although with very little zinc) bullet, Japan with Copper-jacketed bullets which had their own stripping problems. Everyone else used jackets containing nickel in one form or another.
MOST of the problems with Jacket Fouling became moderated to a great degree when the shift to a Copper-based alloy for jackets was made. Inclusion of metallic TIN as a very minor constituent in the POWDER took care of 99% of this problem.
Today, you clean the fouling out of a barrel when it is fouled. Test, as the British did 100 years ago, with a regular Patch. If it snags near the MUZZLE, you have a problem, so bring on the Foul-out, the Decoppering solution, the attenuated Ammonia Dope that Sweet's makes, everything else and clean away until the fouling is gone.
Hope this helps.
.
At velocities 2000 ft/sec and below, nickel-fouling seems not to have been much of a factor at all. It was very much a limiting factor on velocities for a long time.
The Austrians, Bulgarians and Greeks beat the nickel-fouling problem completely by using LUBRICATED STEEL jackets in their ammunition. This was thin sheet-steel which had the surface micro-stippled and then grease rolled deep into the steel as the final step toward making up the lengths of material which would become bullet jackets. Blanks then were punched from this stripping, the jackets drawn and the bullets made. France beat the same problem with their Balle D solid-bronze (actually a type of brass although with very little zinc) bullet, Japan with Copper-jacketed bullets which had their own stripping problems. Everyone else used jackets containing nickel in one form or another.
MOST of the problems with Jacket Fouling became moderated to a great degree when the shift to a Copper-based alloy for jackets was made. Inclusion of metallic TIN as a very minor constituent in the POWDER took care of 99% of this problem.
Today, you clean the fouling out of a barrel when it is fouled. Test, as the British did 100 years ago, with a regular Patch. If it snags near the MUZZLE, you have a problem, so bring on the Foul-out, the Decoppering solution, the attenuated Ammonia Dope that Sweet's makes, everything else and clean away until the fouling is gone.
Hope this helps.
.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Can someone explain to me exactly what is copper fouling and how it negatively affects a firearm?I keep hearing it thrown around by every second person I talk to about guns and many people on here. I have never given half a thought to this matter since I began shooting and cleaning guns and never noticed any difference in accuracy, function or performance and I shoot my small number of guns a lot.
I don't mean statistics from the early 1900's. With todays ammunition and modern cleaning supplies ( a brass brush and oil) someone fill me in here.
Sounds like the boogie man to me.....
I don't mean statistics from the early 1900's. With todays ammunition and modern cleaning supplies ( a brass brush and oil) someone fill me in here.
Sounds like the boogie man to me.....
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
If you think the steel should be bare, then no amount of foreign material or chemical residue is tolerable. The surface of every bore is grainy and rough. As I understand it, some of the material from every bullet passing through the bore will be scraped off by the resistence. If the jackets are copper, that build up is the fouling. Those pricey 'hand lapped' barrels are just bores that have been polished a little more.
I'm not a huge fan of removing every last molecule of copper from my barrels. If the surface is rough already, filling in a few pits and holes isn't going to slow down the bullets any way. In fact, it almost seems like a good idea.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Aye, sounds like a bunch of typical half informed spook talk to me as well.
Just like corrosive ammo. Clean it well with relative attention to detail (like you should be cleaning them anyway) and there is no need for 3000 versions of "grandmas old cleaning recipes" lol
Copper fouling from bullet jackets does affect accuracy. That is why there are so many products and techniques in use to remove it. Brushes, patches and solvents like CLP will remove powder residue but will not remove copper fouling.
Copper fouling can be removed by chemical action using a copper remover like Sweets 7.62, Butch's Boreshine, or Hoppes No 9 Benchrest. Fouling can also be removed by abrasive action using a cleaner like JB Paste. The accuracy of used military barrels is generally improved from the removal of accumulated fouling. I use a combination of chemical cleaner and JB paste on every newly aquired MILSURP. If you want to get an impression of the extent of fouling in a barrel try some of the chemical cleaners mentioned and you will see successive patches turn green from the fouling.
A lot of rifles will shoot best with a slightly fouled barrel so there are no universal recipes for this. It takes some testing at the bench to find the best approach for a particular rifle.
Benchrest shooters are focussed on precision shooting and are highly anal about copper fouling removal as accuracy will deteriorate after a certain number of rounds have been fired since their last barrel cleaning. Most shooters who are interested in the best accuracy will pay attention to this. Sod busters and tin can blasters don't need to be too concerned about it.
Copper fouling can be removed by chemical action using a copper remover like Sweets 7.62, Butch's Boreshine, or Hoppes No 9 Benchrest. Fouling can also be removed by abrasive action using a cleaner like JB Paste. The accuracy of used military barrels is generally improved from the removal of accumulated fouling. I use a combination of chemical cleaner and JB paste on every newly aquired MILSURP. If you want to get an impression of the extent of fouling in a barrel try some of the chemical cleaners mentioned and you will see successive patches turn green from the fouling.
A lot of rifles will shoot best with a slightly fouled barrel so there are no universal recipes for this. It takes some testing at the bench to find the best approach for a particular rifle.
Benchrest shooters are focussed on precision shooting and are highly anal about copper fouling removal as accuracy will deteriorate after a certain number of rounds have been fired since their last barrel cleaning. Most shooters who are interested in the best accuracy will pay attention to this. Sod busters and tin can blasters don't need to be too concerned about it.
Since I switched to aerosol foaming my bores with WipeOut and letting it sit for a few hours, I no longer worry about copper fouling, or even vigorous cleaning. Let the solution do the work for you, two patches to push out the blue copper-saturated fluid and a lubed patch for preservation takes care of most bores.
I love technological advancement.
I usually use Ballistol as my lube as it will actually act on any remaining copper over time and my patches prior to next range session often are blue-ish hued as well.
I love technological advancement.
I usually use Ballistol as my lube as it will actually act on any remaining copper over time and my patches prior to next range session often are blue-ish hued as well.
In the 1931 "Instructions for Armourers" if copper fouling was present at the yearly inspection the armourers would "mix" up some liquid copper bore cleaner to remove the copper fouling.
One test was to send a bore gauge from end to end of the bore and if the bore gauge hung up it was copper build up on the lands.
The bore gauge below was to pass end to end of the bore without stopping.
Below the best way to remove copper buildup is foam bore cleaner, the 1943 No.4 Enfield below fired 50 rounds and had one application of foam bore cleaner. (spare the rod and spoil your bore)
One test was to send a bore gauge from end to end of the bore and if the bore gauge hung up it was copper build up on the lands.
The bore gauge below was to pass end to end of the bore without stopping.
Below the best way to remove copper buildup is foam bore cleaner, the 1943 No.4 Enfield below fired 50 rounds and had one application of foam bore cleaner. (spare the rod and spoil your bore)
Actually for about two years lol they came out with some bio garbage gun oil to replace the CLP but most of the time we still use CLP
Apart from having little/no effect on copper fouling, CLP is a pretty good overall cleaner and lubricant. The silicone content makes for a good weapons lube while the oil component acts as a corrosion preventative. When shooting a Garand or M14 type you also need to lube specified points with a suitable grease.
