What did military do for copper/jacket fouling removal?
- Thread starter y2k
- Start date
As I understand it, the copper residue is much softer than barrel steel, so it will be slightly deformed with each bullet that passes thru the bore. This means that your barrel changes microscopically between each shot.
As consistency is what is required for accuracy, having a badly fouled bore will degrade the accuracy.
The armourer had access to KNS tablets which were used to remove lumpy CN fouling. Extract from training notes supplied to 4th (ARMT) TRG BN REME in the 1950s:-
To remove metallic fouling from the bore
(i) clean with double pullthrough and gauze
(ii) with cupro nickel solvent
dissolve KNS tablets in twenty times their weight of diluted ammonia (Ammonia [.880 sp.gr.] and water in equal proportions). Two tablets in 40ccs of diluted ammonia; this is average for one rifle barrel. The solution does not keep, so only enough for immediate use should be prepared (crush tablets to help them dissolve)
Thoroughly dry the barrel, plug chamber and any gas holes, stand barrel vertical, pour in solvent, and allow to stand for three to four hours. Then run off solvent, wash with water and, if satisfactory, lubricate with Oil 'A'. Repeat the process if necessary with fresh solvent.
The following points should be watched:
(i) use only ammonia of .880 specific gravity
(ii) Do not reduce quantity of ammonia below specified proportions
(iii) KNS tablets and solvent are POISONOUS
Other preparations sold were Motty's, CuNirid, and Safesure paste.
We seldom hear of metallic fouling of that kind with modern bullets.
To remove metallic fouling from the bore
(i) clean with double pullthrough and gauze
(ii) with cupro nickel solvent
dissolve KNS tablets in twenty times their weight of diluted ammonia (Ammonia [.880 sp.gr.] and water in equal proportions). Two tablets in 40ccs of diluted ammonia; this is average for one rifle barrel. The solution does not keep, so only enough for immediate use should be prepared (crush tablets to help them dissolve)
Thoroughly dry the barrel, plug chamber and any gas holes, stand barrel vertical, pour in solvent, and allow to stand for three to four hours. Then run off solvent, wash with water and, if satisfactory, lubricate with Oil 'A'. Repeat the process if necessary with fresh solvent.
The following points should be watched:
(i) use only ammonia of .880 specific gravity
(ii) Do not reduce quantity of ammonia below specified proportions
(iii) KNS tablets and solvent are POISONOUS
Other preparations sold were Motty's, CuNirid, and Safesure paste.
We seldom hear of metallic fouling of that kind with modern bullets.
As mentioned previously, the old nickel-jacketed bullets (which are still made and used in some places) would foul the bore rather rapidly just behind the muzzle.
This was/is a serious problem, as it could/does degrade accuracy by SEVERAL MOA from a given barrel.
It is not AS SERIOUS a problem with Gilding-metal jackets, but it still occurs.
Getting RID of this Fouling can improve your barrel's shooting immensely.
DIFFERENT TREATMENTS ARE REQUIRED FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF FOULING.
BE CAREFUL with anything to do with Ammonia. The old AMMONIA DOPE cost the Americans untold thousands of new barrels before it was superceded. SWEET'S is about as strong as you an use with a modern Ammonia dope and be SAFE.
Go ahead and use the strong stuff if you really like supporting Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Lilja and all their expensive friends. Just kindly don't use it on an original Enfield, Henry, Ross, Schoyen or Pope barrel; that's all I ask. What you do with your paycheque is your business, but I would rather buy guns than replacement barrels.
When talking about accuracy, it is necessary to ask yourself what kind. Badly-fouled barrels which might shoot MOP (Minute of Peterbilt) often can be cleaned up to shoot very nice groups.
.
This was/is a serious problem, as it could/does degrade accuracy by SEVERAL MOA from a given barrel.
It is not AS SERIOUS a problem with Gilding-metal jackets, but it still occurs.
Getting RID of this Fouling can improve your barrel's shooting immensely.
DIFFERENT TREATMENTS ARE REQUIRED FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF FOULING.
BE CAREFUL with anything to do with Ammonia. The old AMMONIA DOPE cost the Americans untold thousands of new barrels before it was superceded. SWEET'S is about as strong as you an use with a modern Ammonia dope and be SAFE.
Go ahead and use the strong stuff if you really like supporting Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Lilja and all their expensive friends. Just kindly don't use it on an original Enfield, Henry, Ross, Schoyen or Pope barrel; that's all I ask. What you do with your paycheque is your business, but I would rather buy guns than replacement barrels.
When talking about accuracy, it is necessary to ask yourself what kind. Badly-fouled barrels which might shoot MOP (Minute of Peterbilt) often can be cleaned up to shoot very nice groups.
.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
A lot of good information. Thanks all.
I will stick to my brass brushes, solvent and patches though.
The day I notice my groups mysteriously expand out drastically on my accurate rifles I will convert to a believer.
I also see hundreds of over priced, over inflated gun oils that are still in the end just cleaner, lubricant and protectant mixtures when you boil it down. A lot of products and high prices don't mean anything in my books, just that companies know how to market and there's always someone with an open ear and a fistfull of dollars
I will stick to my brass brushes, solvent and patches though.
The day I notice my groups mysteriously expand out drastically on my accurate rifles I will convert to a believer.
I also see hundreds of over priced, over inflated gun oils that are still in the end just cleaner, lubricant and protectant mixtures when you boil it down. A lot of products and high prices don't mean anything in my books, just that companies know how to market and there's always someone with an open ear and a fistfull of dollars
Rifle accuracy is built on a 3 legged stool, one leg is shooting skills, the second is quality ammunition and the third is the rifle itself. Setting aside the shooting skills and ammunition variables, most serious shooters will eventually devote some level of effort to copper fouling removal as one aspect of ongoing rifle maintenance.
Basic rifle maintenance includes periodic verification of correct stock bedding, trigger pull, tightness and adjustment of sights, and bore condition. Bore maintenance includes the use of proper cleaning rods and guides to avoid muzzle and throat abrasion, use of solvents to remove powder fouling, and the use of a de-coppering agent to remove/ reduce accumulated copper fouling and a suitable oil to avoid corrosion after cleaning.
When using a de-coppering agent it is essential to use nylon rather than bronze bore brushes as the active agent will cause bronze brushes to break down. If one is going to use some type of bore solvent it would be a good idea to select one with a de-coppering agent which will remove both powder and copper fouling at the same time.
Basic rifle maintenance includes periodic verification of correct stock bedding, trigger pull, tightness and adjustment of sights, and bore condition. Bore maintenance includes the use of proper cleaning rods and guides to avoid muzzle and throat abrasion, use of solvents to remove powder fouling, and the use of a de-coppering agent to remove/ reduce accumulated copper fouling and a suitable oil to avoid corrosion after cleaning.
When using a de-coppering agent it is essential to use nylon rather than bronze bore brushes as the active agent will cause bronze brushes to break down. If one is going to use some type of bore solvent it would be a good idea to select one with a de-coppering agent which will remove both powder and copper fouling at the same time.
Last edited:
DaveMachine
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- That one place with a cowboy complex
Are chromed bores affected to the same degree as barrels without chrome lining?
I've still got a jar of Motty's Bore Paste, I use it extemely sparingly. It is agressive to say the least. I don't know what the grit is in it but I could swear it's talcum fine pumice powder.
Another product I have some left of is "Young's 303" cleaner, rust preventer, nitro solvent powder. This was distributed by Parker Hale.
The cleaning instructions on the back of the cans, is for both corrosive primers and non corrosive. It doesn't work to remove CN or Cu fouling.
As MkVII and smellie say, the old ammonia solutions are nasty to say the least.
Take their reccomendation and stick with Sweet's 7.62 or better yet, Wipe Out.
If you can find some Young's 303, buy it. It's honestly one of the best bore preservers I've come across.
I've seen some very decent bores that were ruined with improper cleaning, after using corrosive primed ammuniton. Just a quick wipe out with a wate soaked swab, isn't enough.
Those bores need to be well flushed with hot water, preferrably and if the bores are fouled with jacket material, there's a good chance the corrosive salts are bound underneath it.
I've cleaned bores badly fouled with jacket material that looked good at first but once the jacket fouling was cleaned out, the pitting on the edges of the lands was obvious.
Get rid of as much fouling as possible and there won't be any problems. Use modern cleaners, they are much better than the old stuff.
That Motty's Bore Paste I mentioned, works well but it should only be used under very extreme conditions. I like to use it with cast bullet residue. I wonder if that's what it was originally made up for??? Smellie or MkVII, do either of you know?
Another product I have some left of is "Young's 303" cleaner, rust preventer, nitro solvent powder. This was distributed by Parker Hale.
The cleaning instructions on the back of the cans, is for both corrosive primers and non corrosive. It doesn't work to remove CN or Cu fouling.
As MkVII and smellie say, the old ammonia solutions are nasty to say the least.
Take their reccomendation and stick with Sweet's 7.62 or better yet, Wipe Out.
If you can find some Young's 303, buy it. It's honestly one of the best bore preservers I've come across.
I've seen some very decent bores that were ruined with improper cleaning, after using corrosive primed ammuniton. Just a quick wipe out with a wate soaked swab, isn't enough.
Those bores need to be well flushed with hot water, preferrably and if the bores are fouled with jacket material, there's a good chance the corrosive salts are bound underneath it.
I've cleaned bores badly fouled with jacket material that looked good at first but once the jacket fouling was cleaned out, the pitting on the edges of the lands was obvious.
Get rid of as much fouling as possible and there won't be any problems. Use modern cleaners, they are much better than the old stuff.
That Motty's Bore Paste I mentioned, works well but it should only be used under very extreme conditions. I like to use it with cast bullet residue. I wonder if that's what it was originally made up for??? Smellie or MkVII, do either of you know?
