What do I have - British SxS

[Killer Kanuck]

At least I think it's British

These are Birmingham proofs, aren't they?

I don't have the gun in my possession yet, but it's been transferred and getting shipped on Monday. So what am I getting?

She looks to have some honest wear, but she's only gonna get used lightly.
Anybody have any 12g full brass hulls they want to get rid of?

 

[tiriaq]

You're correct. Good that it is nitro prooved. The gun is 100 years old, give or take. Make sure that it is mechanically sound, firing pins aren't sloppy, locks work properly, etc. With any elderly gun you want to be sure before you put your head behind it. Should be a maker's name.

 

[Killer Kanuck]

You're correct. Good that it is nitro prooved. The gun is 100 years old, give or take. Make sure that it is mechanically sound, firing pins aren't sloppy, locks work properly, etc. With any elderly gun you want to be sure before you put your head behind it. Should be a maker's name.

The seller was sure that there was no maker's mark (he did think it was Belgian though). Supposed to have tight lockup and nice bores too. Does the 12 over the C in the triangle mean 2-1/2"?
How do you know its rough age?

 

[tiriaq]

I don't know about the 12 over C mark; assume it refers to 12ga. 13/1 refers to the actual bore measurements when the gun was viewed. Measure the chambers to be sure. Might not be 2 3/4. Any gun made or sold in the UK was required to be submitted for proof. Almost invariably any gun made in Belgium would be Liege proofed. If the gun is Belgian made, it should have a set of both Belgian as well as British proofs. The nitro proofs could have been added after the gun was made. Reproof is still done in Birmingham. Absence of a maker's name suggests the gun was made for the retail trade. Stylistically, the piece could have been made any time between the 1880s and WW1. Nitro proof suggests later, rather than earlier, but the gun could have been resubmitted for nitro.

 

[Killer Kanuck]

Thanks tiriaq. Sounds like you're the type of guy whose head I need to keep in a jar just to ask questions to when I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
I'm hoping to do up some black powder shells for it, so nitro proofed is just a bonus.
She should fill the roll when I'm playing cowboy though.

 

[Claybuster]

Those are definitely Birmingham proofs. The numbers after the words "Nitro Proof" represent the shot weight. I'd defer to Sharptail for further info on what each marks means.

Regardless of what is stamped on the barrels, any gun of this apparent age and condition should be gone over by someone who can verify that the gun is safe to fire. It may have been proofed once, even nitro proofed, but what might have happened to this gun between then and now is anyone's guess.

 

[Sharptail]

Those are Birmingham proofs used post 1904. There is no reproof mark, so the nitro proof is original. The 12 over C in the diamond indicates "standard" 12 gauge chambers, meaning 2 1/2 inch chambers. I would not feed this gun CanTire ammunition. The third picture down seems to show the barrels significantly off face, but pictures can be deceiving.

I tend to agree with the seller that this is a Belgian gun proven in Birmingham for sale in the British Empire. The shape of the hammers, the tang on the Prince of Wales grip, the butt pad, the shapes of the locks and the fences are distinctly non English.

Heed Claybuster's advice on having the gun vetted. Have the bore diameter measured, and the wall thicknesses checked. The 13/1 designation indicates that the bores should not exceed 0.728 inches - if they do, then the gun is no longer in proof. Wall thickness at the thinnest point should not be less than 0.020 inches with those barrels. The gun may shoot with the barrels off face, but it won't do so for long. If required, tighten up the lockup with a thin shim in the barrel hook. Be sure and check the operation and safety of the triggers and sears, after a bunch of decades they can be really dirty and let off at the most inconvenient times.

Given that the gun is safe, it would be fun to shoot it at a cowboy shoot with black powder loads. Enjoy it!

Sharptail

 

[bill c68]

I am curious about 2 1/2 vs 2 3/4 loads.

I have a box of British made 2.5 inch shells and side by side with an american made 2.75 they are virtually the same size, I am taliking hairs in the difference. Are European guns chambered differently? I have seen Kent 2.5" and they are much smaller. Now the british made shell was roll crimped if that makes a difference.
KK and I were discussing this, just the other day.

 

[Sharptail]

The length of the shell must be measured after the shell has been fired. A roll crimp "unrolls" for less distance than a star crimp unfolds. Measure the spent shells.

Sharptail

 

[bill c68]

So can the roll crimped 2.5" be fired in the old 2.5" chamber?
I am guessing that when fired the hull of the longer shell actually creates enough pressure to do some damage???

I know I fired 3" 410 shells for years out of an old single 410 before realizing it was chambered for 2.5" The only issue was extracting the shells.

 

[tiriaq]

Would the absence of Belgian proofs mean that the gun was imported in an unfinished state into Britian? Apparently actions for the Farqharson style single shots were of Belgian origin, finished, stocked up and embellished by the British gunmakers whose names appear on them. As the gunmaking trade was practiced in that period, sometimes a firearm was manufactured under one roof, lock, stock and barrel. But often, a firearm was an assembly of parts from a number of shops, or was made by one primary manufacturer, but finished and/or marked and retailed by a different house.

 

[SDC]

The "12 over C" proof shows that this is simply a 12-gauge that was proofed with a "C"hoked barrel, but there should still be at least some sort of maker's or retailer's mark somewhere on it, usually either on the top-rib or on one or both of the sideplates. It's too bad your pictures aren't showing up anymore, it sounds like a nice gun