What do I have here?

notsorichguy

notsorichguy

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I was in the local g-store the other day and I saw this in the display.

The price was right (under $350) so I figgured what the heck.

The CFC thinks its a Colt 1911......

On the right hand side of the Slide is says:

*Emblem* EJERCITO ARGENTINO
Sist. Colt Cal. 11.25 mm MOD 1927

On the left hand side of the Slide it says:

D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P.)

The serial # is all over this thing, Top of the slide, RH side of the slide, on the RH hand of the frame, on the barrel and the barrel bushing. I have not completely blown it apart yet but I assume I'll find the same number on the internals as well.

The Emblem I mentioned looks like a an oval with 2 hands shaking in it topped by a crown, the underside of the oval has a wreath of some kind.

The pics really don't do it justice but here ya go.

Any and all info is appreciated, I really hope there is no collector value in this piece, it shows a lot of wear and I was thinking it would make a good project gun.

DSCI0028.jpg


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Cheers!
 
Lifted this from another site:

"Your 1927 is neither a 'Colt', nor a M-1911A1. It is an Argentine Mod.1927. These pistols were made under license granted by Colt in 1928, and are not quite as good a quality as their U.S. counterparts. In fact, ANY of the U.S. military 1911-A1's from WWI I are better than the Argentine clones. The best quality examples of these 'furriners' are worth, at best, $250-300US." And here is some more:
"The pistol was manufactured by
F M A P a reputable gun manufacturer in Argentina. Argentina first bought 10,000 M1911A1s from Colt before producing more under contract. The pistol is interchangeable with the M1911A1 made by Colt since it was produced to be just like the one's made by Colt under contract."

And some more:

In 1927, Argentina ordered additional pistols from Colt. The resultant "Modello 1927" featured the 1911A1 modifications recently adopted by the United States Army. After Colt delivered 10,000, the Argentine government built 74,866 more at its "Domingo Matheu" factory in Rosario.

As the Argentines built the Modello 1927, engineers suggested a few changes to simplify production, though these changes did not appear in the Modello 1927. One of these engineers was Dr. Arturo Ballester of the Hispano Argentina Fabrica de Automoviles, S.A (HAFDASA) of Buenos Aires, a firm created in 1929 by Ballester and Eugenio Molina to build cars, buses, trucks and diesel engines.

Meanwhile, z the Bonifacio Echeverria factory in Spain was building a series of Model 1911 clones known as the "Star" pistols. Though based on Colt's design, the Star lacked some of its refinements, making it easier to produce. The .45 caliber Star Model P influenced the Ballester-Molina pistol's design.

In 1937, with war clouds gathering ominously over Europe and Asia, the Argentine military gave HAFDASA a pistol contract. The resultant pistol is known variously as the Ballester-Rigaud, Ballester-Molina or HAEDASA, and was the HAFDASA firm's first gun."

Isn't Google great!

Take Care

Bob
 
The gun you have is a licence built 1911 Colt made in Argentina. The gun described in the second post is the Systema Colt, which shares the barrel and magazine, and little else.
 
Canuck223 said:
The gun you have is a licence built 1911 Colt made in Argentina. The gun described in the second post is the Systema Colt, which shares the barrel and magazine, and little else.
Click to expand...

Better re-read the entire post. I think you are referencing the 2nd last paragraph of my reply which refers to the Star pistols made in Spain. You should also read the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph. You might have saved some typing.

Take Care

Bob
 
In 1937, with war clouds gathering ominously over Europe and Asia, the Argentine military gave HAFDASA a pistol contract. The resultant pistol is known variously as the Ballester-Rigaud, Ballester-Molina or HAEDASA, and was the HAFDASA firm's first gun."
Click to expand...

I have one of these. They look like a 1911 but there are a number of differences. No grip safety, pivoting trigger, slightly different slide.
The parts that do interchange are the barrel & mags & some slide stops.
 
Colt M1911A1 Argentine Modelo 1927: S/N 1 to 10,000 = July 28, 1927 to Feb. 16,
1928 ( Marked on slide with " COLT CAL. 45 MOD. 1927" and S/N's stamped on
top of slide in Colt's italic numbers.)

SYST. COLT pistols made by Argintina under
licence from Colt marked on right of slide with "EJERCITO ARGENTINO / SIST.
COLT CAL 11.25 mm. Model 1927". Other M1911A1 pistols made in Argintina at
Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles, Rosario, Argintina S/N 10,001 to 112,000
 
I have an article with details like....
Beginning of M1911:
Colt: S/N 1 to 3190 = April 16, 1912 to May 31, 1912,,,,,,,,
And
S/N C214833 Nov. 10, 1942 Shipped to Capt. A. H. Harris, Hartford Ord. District

Very good article for identifying 1911's but I can't remember where I got it.
 
Near as I can tell everything seems to work on this one. The only obvious differance between this one and my 70 series Gold cup is the hammer. If fact all the parts from my Colt, Nork and STI all seem to interchange..... Slide, Barrel, Barrel bushing and Slide stop.

I haven't actually tried trigger parts and what not, but I had it out to the range this afternoon and the Colt & Nork slides swapped out and functioned fine.

Would the world come crashing down if I trimmed the back of the frame for a higher grip saftey? I really don't want to 'destroy' a piece of history..... Even if I paid only $350 for it...... But if there is some collector value I may just leave it as is.

Cheers!
 
Why not just leave it the way it is?

There's certain to be SOME fool out there who will buy something like this when you want to get rid of it.

BTW, I'm a fool, too!
 
I am in the middle of a complete rebuild of mine should be done by next week... All the parts I have got so far fit with no mods.. new trigger ,new ejector, new barrell, new slide, new mag, ambi safty, rodewood grips, hammer, firing pin, So far mine is the only one I seen in two tone with matching numbers... I love the large bever tail :)

 
notsorichguy said:
Would the world come crashing down if I trimmed the back of the frame for a higher grip saftey? I really don't want to 'destroy' a piece of history..... Even if I paid only $350 for it...... But if there is some collector value I may just leave it as is.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I have a Colt and an Ithaca that previous owners cut up for different grip safeties (curse them). Its your pistol, do what you want, but even if yours isn't the most "collectable" of 1911s right now, I would suggest getting something like a Norinco if you have an itchy grinder finger.
I'd even buy one to trade with you, I'm kind of stupid like that. My Ithaca is costing approx. $500 to undo what Cutty McCutterson did, not counting the refinish after.
 
deadman said:
I have a Colt and an Ithaca that previous owners cut up for different grip safeties (curse them). Its your pistol, do what you want, but even if yours isn't the most "collectable" of 1911s right now, I would suggest getting something like a Norinco if you have an itchy grinder finger.
I'd even buy one to trade with you, I'm kind of stupid like that. My Ithaca is costing approx. $500 to undo what Cutty McCutterson did, not counting the refinish after.
Click to expand...

My interest is piqued :D

I understand exactly what you are saying, I've got a used Colt GC that the front of the triggerguard was 'notched' and then filled with JB Weld to make a more 'tacital' hook. What a disaster! It wouldn't be so bad but the job looks like poop!

I already have a Gunner tuned 1911A1, I am mid way through customizing it at this point..... I figgured if I'm going to do it again I might as well save my $100 and buy a pistol that needs a bunch of new parts anyway. The only parts on the Nork that will be original when I am done will be the Firing pin, Extractor, barrel, Frame and the Slide

This pistol has a bagged out barrel bushing, barrel link and the frame to slide fit is terrible. The barrel bushing is so bad I can wiggle the barrel with my finger when the slide is closed.

Best I can do is about 14" off a rest @ 25y, this is with a known load that can put them all in a 4" group at 25y with my Colt or my Nork.....

What I am trying to say is this pistol is a fairly in-accurate safe queen (or should I say bush pig) with out a bunch of work the finish desperatly needs a re-do anyway, so I might as well go all out......

Cheers!
 
I agree. Those are easy to find, drop-in parts. Frame-to-slide work is something I have no idea about, however. Another thing is, maybe I shouldn't be offering too much advice, cause people might say my projects aren't worth putting the effort or money into.
 
notsorichguy said:
Near as I can tell everything seems to work on this one. The only obvious differance between this one and my 70 series Gold cup is the hammer. If fact all the parts from my Colt, Nork and STI all seem to interchange..... Slide, Barrel, Barrel bushing and Slide stop.

I haven't actually tried trigger parts and what not, but I had it out to the range this afternoon and the Colt & Nork slides swapped out and functioned fine.

Would the world come crashing down if I trimmed the back of the frame for a higher grip saftey? I really don't want to 'destroy' a piece of history..... Even if I paid only $350 for it...... But if there is some collector value I may just leave it as is.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Personally, I'd leave it as is.

And from personal experience, I have seen a number of these have barrel issues. On the 1927's where the frame, slide & barrel are serial numbered, the serial number being on the barrel hood, I have seen cracking right above the link/pin lug where it joins the underside of the barrel. This also causes the bottom of the chamber to collapse as well. If it happens when shooting, likely the pistol will just lock up tight. I wouldn't recommend shooting any "hot loads" in it to prevent this. But I'd also examine it closely after you shoot it for issues in this area.

I have one of these barrels, sn. on the hood is 52,2XX that is so cracked I will post a pic of it:

DSCN4184.jpg


Here is the collapsed chamber, it's the small dark spot just behind the rifling:

DSCN4188.jpg


PS. I don't have & never had the pistol that goes with this barrel. I received the barrel in this condition & have no info about how or when this issue with it occurred. But I have seen other 1927 barrels with similar problems.

Just something to think about.

2007-10-27_091302_1aCoffee.gif

NAA.
 
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