What does this label mean?

Steel isn't as dense as lead. Therefore it will be a compromise on at least one aspect no matter what - downrange energy, # of pellets in a shell (pattern density), penetration - at least one of these is going to suffer. Can steel still kill? Absolutely. But anyone who says it kills just as well is lying to themselves - people lie, the physics don't.
 
the spank said:
Real intelligent comment. Glad you brought such useful insight to the table. Were you able to come up with that all by yourself?
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the spank said:
Real intelligent comment. Glad you brought such useful insight to the table. Were you able to come up with that all by yourself?
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We had someone that thought that it was okay to shoot our target frames/backers with that load, because it is labeled as a target load. The person was shooting an AR styled shotgun, and there are signs clearly stating that only slugs may be used on the main range.
 
Suther said:
But anyone who says it kills just as well is lying to themselves - people lie, the physics don't.
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That's the truth of the matter. No one is killing geese effectively or consistently at 50 yards with steel. But if you give them a Tungsten-Matrix or Bismuth shell and they will kill at those extended ranges effectively. And before anyone shows up to say that shots like that are unnecessary and unethical, that's BS. If you are pass shooting geese, as many of us do, you don't always get them flying over at 30 yards. The shot will retain enough energy to be lethal so why not take the shot if you are reasonably confident in your abilities?
 
Longstud said:
A 7/8 ounce load at 1100-1150 is more than adequate for any grouse. Theyre super soft and easily dispatched. I like the smaller gauges for a foray of forest chickens. Everybody has an opinion, like 3 1/2 inch shells are required for waterfowling. Use whatever gives you confidence but light loads keep you on target better for multiple engagements.
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I have killed a truckoad of many different species of grouse from Sharptails to Ruffies with everything from 65 grains of FFG and 7/8oz of #6 running about 1125FPS to 3/4 oz of 9's at 1455FPS and various charges higher in everything from 28's to 10's.
They are not at all hard to kill over a good dog , sitting in a tree or ground swatting .Shot placement is key, regardless whether a hunter is using , nickle or copper plated, steel or hard lead,or hand smelted garage shot !:cool:
Cat
 
I am not sure about velocity ratings - is a relatively new thing - say over past 10 or 20 years to see that - used to be that shotgun shells were loaded with black powder - in "drams" - so when change came to use smokeless powder, seemed to be important to tell the shooter what the loads were as "drams equivalent" - so supposed to have been same velocity and pressure with smokeless powder as you would have got with the "drams equivalent" of black powder. So, as you show - something wonky - either drams equivalent is exaggerated, or the velocity is - whatever it takes to sell the product, I guess. Is not like many shooters will verify velocity on a chronograph; not many people (none that I know) have the equipment to measure actual pressure - so most everyone will be going with what is printed on that box.

But I don't know much about shotgun shells - maybe I have that all wrong.
 
53Izzy744 said:
Lol why do you think i quoted the party line?

Anywho, back on topic with the loads! What about these? How super can they be? 50fps super?


Well - A 5% increase in velocity results in a 10% increase in kinetic energy... For those of us that shoot target loads a lot, the increased recoil certainly is noticeable. I prefer 1 oz @ 1200 fps - roughly 20% less kinetic energy than the shells posted. Suggest you try them and let your shoulder decide.
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Potashminer said:
I am hoping someone experienced with shotguns can tell me what is "HANDICAP" meaning on this label - not sure that 1200 fps is actually High Velocity compared to other shotgun loadings - but there it is. #7.5 lead shot (I hope), 1 1/8 ounce load, 3 drams equivalent powder load. I do not compete - informal shooting at clay pigeons in a pasture - hoping to maybe get a grouse or two with these. I intend to use in a made-in-1955 Model 12 Winchester - that barrel is marked as 12 gauge, 2 3/4" chamber, and Full choke. I hope these turn out to be suitable ammo?

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If your going to be using the gun described for shooting grouse I would advise letting them get out a fair distance or there may not be much useable meat. Take a piece of cardboard and draw a rough facsimilie of a grouse and shoot it with the shell in your post at 20 yards, and then 25 and 30 and 35. Youll quickly see that at fairly close range the damage will be massive and an edible animal wasted. If the birds are flushing in any type of cover an improved cylinder should more than enough to punch their ticket.
 
the spank said:
I've called BS on that since day 1 and decades of research by Tom Roster has pretty much proven that. I said right from the beginning the guys who claimed you couldn't kill with steel didn't kill any better than they did with lead and I've hunted with plenty of them. The good shooters I've hunted with could kill just as effectively with steel as lead because they shot well enough and could judge range well enough to centre birds in the pattern. Steel gave the marginal ability shooters the excuse they needed for their misses and crippled birds.

As for target loads it is now less expensive for ammunition manufacturers to produce shot made from steel than high antimony lead and steel is HARD and patterns much better due to not deforming when fired. I hear alot of claims if steel shot became mandated for the clays games many would walk away but I've shot steel shot target loads on several occasions and it worked very well on sporting clays, skeet and 5-stand. I have never tried it on trap. It would be interesting to try it from my assigned yardage of 25.5. I would not give up the clay shooting because of a shot change. I'm actually kind of surprised in this day and age that more clubs and ranges haven't switched over.
https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/steel-shot-lethality-testing/?amp
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Well apparently we both hunted long enough to go through the transition from hunting with lead to mandatory non tox. Anyone who says steel is as effective as lead is full of it. The early steel loads were absolute garbage. I guided for a living and seen the wounded birds fly several hundred yards and then drop. Not much fun or ethical. But birds dying of lead poisoning isnt ethical either. The newer steel loads are greatly improved but the range is still nothing like lead. Light things dont have the same energy as heavy things going the same speed so pellet size has to be increased to equalize the energy! Now physics takes over and the bigger thing slows down faster. Yes on patterns being tighter but reduced payloads so its a trade off. Dont see many steel turkey loads. Theres a reason for that. Enter the Tungsten shells and now we are back to lead on steroids. Non toxic with crazy tight patterns and the deadliest shot ever. Pitfall is the expense but a great shooter wont fire many shells above the limit count. It is that good. THATS WHAT IVE HEARD
 
Longstud said:
Pitfall is the expense but a great shooter wont fire many shells above the limit count. It is that good. THATS WHAT IVE HEARD
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It is that good. I bought the Old Man a case of Kent Tungsten-Matrix shells many years back so that he could get his prized old Model 21 back in the game. Not sure that he ever hunted with it before he passed. On my last trip out there I took the 21 and shot with it for a few days. It was like taking a time machine back to the 1980s except without the racism. Geese dropped from the sky like they were struck by lightning at ranges that I had forgotten were possible. I shot my first double on Canadas on a beautiful low-passing pair that will be forever etched in my mind.

I wish there was a way to get the Boss plated Bismuth shells up here in Canada but so far no enterprising distributor North of the 49th has taken on the challenge. Maybe I should retire and be a shotshell pimp as my retirement gig!
 
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