What firearm NOT to use on grizzly bears.
- Thread starter H4831
- Start date
As a preteen I rode my bicycle into Kappan Lake (outside of Anahim) ahead of the family van with the boat in tow. Much to my chagrin as I arrived at the forestry site someone whipped open there camper door proclaiming there was a black bear around camp they had just shot in the ass with a pellet gun. It wasn't happy and I ended up on top of the outhouse till dad showed up in the van. They had their bear gun a 30/30 "in case it got aggressive" we went about our day of fishing but the idiocy of the whole situation has always stayed with me
So a pellet gun that shouldn't be used on a black bear applies equally if not more so to Grizzly's in my mind.
Fuzzy
So a pellet gun that shouldn't be used on a black bear applies equally if not more so to Grizzly's in my mind.
Fuzzy
Used to be standard response in dealing with bears hanging around where thy shouldn't be. Made a lot of pissed off bears when the shot under the skin started to fester.
Grizz
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The practice of swatting a bear in the behind with birdshot was pretty common, and some people still practice it, after all, rubber bullets and cracker shells are expensive. When I was a kid there was a school of thought that in a dangerous bear encounter, the first load out of a shotgun should be fine bird shot in an attempt to blind the bear, which in theory allowed you the opportunity to finish him off with a slug. I'd like to meet the genius who dreamed that idiocy up, but there was a surprising number of folks who saw it as sage advice. Even as a wide eyed youngster I couldn't figure out why, if you had a slug in the gun, and had any kind of viable shot, you wouldn't just kill the bear with the first shot.
Another good one is if you don't have slugs with you, cut around the circumference of the shell, just ahead of the brass, leaving just enough plastic so that the two pieces don't separate. The theory is that the plastic hull goes out the muzzle with the shot in place, and hits the bear if not like a slug, then like a super charged Glazer Safety Slug. This sounds like a good way to bulge a barrel to me, so here's a radical idea, carry a few slugs in a sidesaddle or in a butt cuff. If the rounds are always on the gun, you won't forget to take them, and with a little practice running slug select drills, if you need a slug, you can get one in the chamber pretty quickly. If over time they start to discolor or corrode, shoot them off and replace them with fresh slugs. Around here, shotshells carried externally need to be swapped out after about 30 days during warm weather.
Another good one is if you don't have slugs with you, cut around the circumference of the shell, just ahead of the brass, leaving just enough plastic so that the two pieces don't separate. The theory is that the plastic hull goes out the muzzle with the shot in place, and hits the bear if not like a slug, then like a super charged Glazer Safety Slug. This sounds like a good way to bulge a barrel to me, so here's a radical idea, carry a few slugs in a sidesaddle or in a butt cuff. If the rounds are always on the gun, you won't forget to take them, and with a little practice running slug select drills, if you need a slug, you can get one in the chamber pretty quickly. If over time they start to discolor or corrode, shoot them off and replace them with fresh slugs. Around here, shotshells carried externally need to be swapped out after about 30 days during warm weather.
I have a bear book here that has lots of great stories and it has stories from park rangers in Yellowstone who when going after black bears picked up their bear stick to chase bears away from tourist site. Course they have a story about a guy who followed on sow over to the tree she climbed and poked her in the butt with a umbrella and it came back down the tree and proceeded to kill him.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Here is a link to an article that contained a couple discussions about what to carry for bears. The writer, Brian Pearce, has hunted Kodiaks several times, and is very familiar with handguns and wildlife. http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=627&magid=48
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
There are a few problems with this article, the most egregious IMHO is the idea that bigger is always better. Handguns for wilderness carry use fall into two general categories, "hunting handguns" and "hunters' handguns". The hunting handgun is the typical gigantic, long barreled, often scoped handguns that if not revolvers chambered for .475 Linebaugh or .500 Wyoming Express, are are single shots or bolt actions chambered for rifle cartridges. The hunters' handgun is the size of what most of us would recognize as a service pistol. The idea being that the gun can be carried easily, and is so light that it is out of the way and forgotten unless needed, whereupon it can be quickly brought into action. A typical revolver weighing 40 ounces kicks hard when chambered for a powerful cartridge, so if you go too far the gun will be uncontrollable should you need a fast follow up shot, and in the case of the very powerful chamberings, can injure you if you don't have a solid hold on the gun. A hot loaded .45 Colt/.454 Casull or a .44 magnum in normal sized revolvers, when loaded with 325-350 gr bullets at 1200 fps provides quite a punch on both ends, and is quite sufficient to produce through and through penetration on the largest bear skull. Many would be better with 240 gr bullets from the standpoint of shootability, or even choose a .357 with 200 gr bullets at 1150. There is little reason to add yet another 100 grs of bullet weight or 300 fps of velocity over a .44 magnum loaded with 325, as is the case with the .475s and the big case .500s.
If we consider the issues which result in bear human conflict, it quickly becomes apparent that while its possible to come in conflict with a very big bear, particularly if you come across one unexpectedly at close range, you are much more likely to have problems with sub adults and females with cubs. Thus the idea that you'll have to face a three quarter ton bear in a fight to the death altercation is mostly a false narrative if you practice avoidance. Trust me, a 300-600 pound bear that wants to kill you is enough, and in some ways is more difficult to deal with; they'll be faster, more aggressive, are more likely to be predatory, and present a smaller target, than the full sized male. The exception to the rule is an ancient starving bear, or an injured bear unable to feed itself, whose behavior falls outside that which is normally associated with adult males. A female with second year cubs . . . 3 problems for the price of one!
Last edited:
To illustrate the prevailing attitudes towards bears years ago amongst people who lived in the woods. Just about all the old fellows I knew came from that camp, "See a bear, shoot it." end of story. By and large I think years ago bears avoided men much more than they do now due to that behaviour on the part of people. They weren't considered game animals, weren't considered prime eating so they were viewed as pests and troublemakers to be eradicated. Not endorsing the viewpoint but that was the prevailing opinion of the time.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Indeed, this scenario occurs about every two weeks at work in bear season. I suspect this was in a different era when it was acceptable to pump lead pellets into a bear because it was in the direction you wanted to go, as evidenced by how it was reported in the papers and the outfitter didn't receive hefty punishment from the COs. Shoot a grizzly with birdshot for not leaving a trail today and you'll face repercussions that would really make you question that decision- even without the chance of straight pissing off the grizzly as occurred here. They don't piss around.
Different era, different attitudes, and a lot more bears back then. I know plenty of people unfortunately who will put birdshot in a black bear's ass still today, was just the times and frequent exposure.
It cannot be written any better. The voice of experience and reason.
My experience in dealing with big and possibly angry bears amounts to nothing but I know what the vast majority of people can - and above all cannot - do with an overly powerful sidearm, like a standard size revolver chambered in .44 Magnum, let's say a Smith & Wesson Model 29 with a four inch barrel. I have never seen anybody who could place five bullets (240 grains factory ammo) in a four inch circle at 25, 20 or 15 yards IN LESS THAN FIVE SECONDS - on demand, with that revolver. I suppose that it can be done but I have never witnessed it - and I am no spring chicken. I think that five seconds in a bear/man close encounter is an eternity : the bear is coming and coming very fast, so the target is always moving up and down and from side to side.
Front sight and press, recoil control, front sight and press again ... and don't you lose your front sight !!!
To the OP, here is an article that you probably know about already but any way maybe some people don't.
Safety in Bear Country : Protective Measures and Bullet Performance at Short Range (http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf)
The shotgun gauge and load used by the outfitter in your original post are not recommended in that article ...
Okay, I forgot to quote all of the appropriate posts I want to address and I am out of time, so I will simply say,
Bruce, I completely understand what happened to your buddy. He knew that the birdshot would not hurt the bear in any way and, I have seen this myself with black bear (never went into grizz country), would merely push it along. In this case, it didn't work, but at the time was probably considered solid common wisdom (at least I would have done it expecting the proper result).
Couple of guys posted immediate "go big or go home" stuff... really? Ever carry on long trails as a guide? Unless I was out hunting big stuff in big country, I wouldn't be carrying big medicine. I have normally gone in undergunned in almost any case I may have seen a grizzly (never seen one, but if i did I would have messed myself while trying to get away).
Those that said that he shouldn't have taken the shot because it wasn't humane, wrong, it didn't bother the bear, he just reacted differently than expected (yes a wild animal didn't react as expected, it happens).
Those who have said that back in the day when you basically shot everything were not far off. When men shot every bear they saw, ANY bear, bears stayed away. When Hunters shot every owl, raptor, etc that they saw, we had more rabbits and birds for hunting. Now that we have begun taking coyotes and wolves out here with a bounty, I think our deer, moose, elk, rabbit population will come up. I grew up with my father's freinds telling me to shoot all of these. Then the law changed and we couldnt do that anymore. Now there are no rabbits in NS.
Boomer (I think) you talked about common wisdom being shooting the animal with a load of buck shot in the face. I got taught the same thing as a kid and once I used my first pump shotgun, I found that pretty stupid. While I always was out hunting birds/rabbits, I carried one birdshot in the chamber, next round was always a slug (just in case), and the rest birdshot. My practice was to see how fast I could eject that birdshot round and fire the slug. I'll take the chance that a bear can still see me when I kill it than a blind, mad bear still coming at me. When actually hunting deer or black bear, the combination was slug, slug, birdshot, birdshot (since bird and rabbit season overlapped big game). I still managed my fair share of small game.
My thoughts,
Ted
Bruce, I completely understand what happened to your buddy. He knew that the birdshot would not hurt the bear in any way and, I have seen this myself with black bear (never went into grizz country), would merely push it along. In this case, it didn't work, but at the time was probably considered solid common wisdom (at least I would have done it expecting the proper result).
Couple of guys posted immediate "go big or go home" stuff... really? Ever carry on long trails as a guide? Unless I was out hunting big stuff in big country, I wouldn't be carrying big medicine. I have normally gone in undergunned in almost any case I may have seen a grizzly (never seen one, but if i did I would have messed myself while trying to get away).
Those that said that he shouldn't have taken the shot because it wasn't humane, wrong, it didn't bother the bear, he just reacted differently than expected (yes a wild animal didn't react as expected, it happens).
Those who have said that back in the day when you basically shot everything were not far off. When men shot every bear they saw, ANY bear, bears stayed away. When Hunters shot every owl, raptor, etc that they saw, we had more rabbits and birds for hunting. Now that we have begun taking coyotes and wolves out here with a bounty, I think our deer, moose, elk, rabbit population will come up. I grew up with my father's freinds telling me to shoot all of these. Then the law changed and we couldnt do that anymore. Now there are no rabbits in NS.
Boomer (I think) you talked about common wisdom being shooting the animal with a load of buck shot in the face. I got taught the same thing as a kid and once I used my first pump shotgun, I found that pretty stupid. While I always was out hunting birds/rabbits, I carried one birdshot in the chamber, next round was always a slug (just in case), and the rest birdshot. My practice was to see how fast I could eject that birdshot round and fire the slug. I'll take the chance that a bear can still see me when I kill it than a blind, mad bear still coming at me. When actually hunting deer or black bear, the combination was slug, slug, birdshot, birdshot (since bird and rabbit season overlapped big game). I still managed my fair share of small game.
My thoughts,
Ted
Last edited:
I am not experienced with bears, but do some blueberry picking in the summers up near Sudbury, ON. My Dad is a real picker, and goes a long way into the bush to get good patches, and I bought him spray to take with him. He's in pretty good shape for any soon-to-be 78 year old, but I still worry when he goes out alone, sees bb poop quite often.
He's out on crown land, and doesn't carry anything but the spray with him. Is there a smaller sized rifle I could pick him up to have just in case? Machete? Big Bowie?
Opinions welcome.
He's out on crown land, and doesn't carry anything but the spray with him. Is there a smaller sized rifle I could pick him up to have just in case? Machete? Big Bowie?
Opinions welcome.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The big knife thing, don't even go there. The first step is to purchase James Gary Shelton's bear attack trilogy, if the subject interests you, you won't be able to put them down. Stephen Herrero's book is a good follow up to Shelton. Knowledge is power, and there's lots of power in these books. Now does he want a gun, or is it that you that wants him to have one? Lots of the old time woodsmen don't seem to think carrying a firearm in black bear country is important, and you won't convince them otherwise. If he wants one, continue reading, otherwise there's little point in continuing, after all, your dad has made it to 78, and old guys aren't anxious to change their ways.
If he wants an off season bear gun, the key is to finding him something appropriate, that isn't such a nuisance to carry that he'll be inclined to leave it behind, which probably leaves out a shotgun, or a big rifle. A Mares Leg in .44 magnum, fitted with a rifle sized butt stock, ghost ring and post sights, and a sling and swivels would probably give you both piece of mind, provided he's an experienced shooter. Another option, if he prefers a bolt gun, is one of the new breed of short barreled ultra light rifles in say .30/06, which allows a low power scope to be easily mounted if he has trouble finding a front sight, and there are numerous options and a broad price range in this category.
If he wants an off season bear gun, the key is to finding him something appropriate, that isn't such a nuisance to carry that he'll be inclined to leave it behind, which probably leaves out a shotgun, or a big rifle. A Mares Leg in .44 magnum, fitted with a rifle sized butt stock, ghost ring and post sights, and a sling and swivels would probably give you both piece of mind, provided he's an experienced shooter. Another option, if he prefers a bolt gun, is one of the new breed of short barreled ultra light rifles in say .30/06, which allows a low power scope to be easily mounted if he has trouble finding a front sight, and there are numerous options and a broad price range in this category.
Last edited:
I've read a couple three Gary Sheldon's books and definitely an eye opener.
No two outcomes resemble one another on the encounters.
He does mention there are more bear encounters than one realizes for anyone
out in the bush.
And "encounters" does have a different meaning than what is presumed.
That got me thinking to all those that I remember, and there were plenty.
I just never thought about the way Gary Sheldon describes.
Grizzly inches from my head in a pup tent..........phewwwww, thanks granmamamah.
Fishing Anderson River as a child and I got caught between ma and cubs.
Never knew how bawllsy dad was until that day.
Old basteeetch ain't skeer'd nutt'n.
The year me and the gal now me wifie camped out at Seymour Arm and the black bear into
my cooler eating me bay-kun.
If'n nawt fer the young Mrs. K I'd awff huff'd n'puff'd and saved me bay-kun.
She started dewn that girlie chit................bawl'n'er eyes owt.
I wuzz gonna run up the hood me truck and shimmie awn the camper rewf and git me gun.
I'dda tawt that black summabeeethc nawt tuh mess wid me.
Sew's we git back to the beach and gartzs the warden to show that bear the whut-fer.
Dang............ never fell fer bawlly tears buhfour.
No two outcomes resemble one another on the encounters.
He does mention there are more bear encounters than one realizes for anyone
out in the bush.
And "encounters" does have a different meaning than what is presumed.
That got me thinking to all those that I remember, and there were plenty.
I just never thought about the way Gary Sheldon describes.
Grizzly inches from my head in a pup tent..........phewwwww, thanks granmamamah.
Fishing Anderson River as a child and I got caught between ma and cubs.
Never knew how bawllsy dad was until that day.
Old basteeetch ain't skeer'd nutt'n.
The year me and the gal now me wifie camped out at Seymour Arm and the black bear into
my cooler eating me bay-kun.
If'n nawt fer the young Mrs. K I'd awff huff'd n'puff'd and saved me bay-kun.
She started dewn that girlie chit................bawl'n'er eyes owt.
I wuzz gonna run up the hood me truck and shimmie awn the camper rewf and git me gun.
I'dda tawt that black summabeeethc nawt tuh mess wid me.
Sew's we git back to the beach and gartzs the warden to show that bear the whut-fer.
Dang............ never fell fer bawlly tears buhfour.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Must be love. Hmmm, I wonder who saved whose bacon?
Had it been my wife, I'd of had to protect the bear!
The Outsider
CGN Regular
I live, hunt, camp, and hike here in south eastern BC, one of the most densely populated griz habitats in North America.
I see fresh sign almost on a daily basis when I'm in the bush, and despite what you hear from the anti hunting crowd, there's no decline in the bear population, and no threat to the species.
If anything, from what I see, the grizzly bear population is growing.
I'm aways on my toes, every fall there's at least one bear killed in self defence in this area,
two years ago, a bear jumped a couple of hunters packing out an elk, one of them said if he wasn't carrying his rifle in his hands, they wouldn't have had a chance!
There's been a couple of local cases where grizzly bears were killed with a well placed shot from a 308.
I even had a close call myself several years ago, grouse hunting on an old logging road, luckily for me the sow and her two large cubs took off, leaving me and my knees shaking, holding a SXS 12 gauge, a mile from my vehicle.
These days, I never walk in the woods without at least a 30-06 loaded up with a 180 grain Partition, or maybe a Defender 12 gauge.
I see fresh sign almost on a daily basis when I'm in the bush, and despite what you hear from the anti hunting crowd, there's no decline in the bear population, and no threat to the species.
If anything, from what I see, the grizzly bear population is growing.
I'm aways on my toes, every fall there's at least one bear killed in self defence in this area,
two years ago, a bear jumped a couple of hunters packing out an elk, one of them said if he wasn't carrying his rifle in his hands, they wouldn't have had a chance!
There's been a couple of local cases where grizzly bears were killed with a well placed shot from a 308.
I even had a close call myself several years ago, grouse hunting on an old logging road, luckily for me the sow and her two large cubs took off, leaving me and my knees shaking, holding a SXS 12 gauge, a mile from my vehicle.
These days, I never walk in the woods without at least a 30-06 loaded up with a 180 grain Partition, or maybe a Defender 12 gauge.
Last edited:
